Halloween hypocrites

[DST Love]

First off, let me say that I am not challenging anyone's decision to participate or not participate in Halloween activities. Everyone has that right. This is merely a question meant to invoke conversation. Now I am posting this in response to all of the "Halloween" threads throughout GC.

So for all of the people that are against any sort of participation for Halloween due to religious type reasons only, here is my question to you:

Do you go to see scary movies where you know that demons or evil spirits/people will possess and/or kill someone? And if so, do you enjoy the movie even more when said killing scares you almost to death? Well my question is, if you do the above, then how is that any less hypocritical, as far as religion is concerned, than dressing up in scary costumes, trick-or-treating, visiting haunted houses, etc. for one day? If you do not see scary movies for the same reasons you do not participate on Halloween, then I applaud you for sticking to your convictions.

[Ideal08]

That was on point, DST Love!!! I look forward to the responses.

[NOWorNEVER]

When I was younger, I wasn't allowed for religious reasons. My Mother also didn't allow us to see scary movies as well. So, she was correct in that.
But now, I love scary movies. I am a christian, and I don't celebrate Halloween. Not for the same reasons as why I was younger. I just don't get into Halloween now out of habit since I was not raised to do so. I also don't celebrate because not only is it overrated, but also some crazy psychopaths come out Halloween night.

But you are absolutely right and I agree with you in your observations. I've asked myself those same questions before.

[CodeBlue_R3]

AS THE ORIGINAL POSTER OF "HALLOWEEN"

NO I DO NOT AGREE TO THE SCARY MOVIES EITHER NOR BUT LIKE YOU SAID EVERYONE HAS THERE OWN CHOICE AS TO WHAT THEY CAN, WILL, SHOULD, AND WON'T DO.

I'M JUST LETTING THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT HALLOWEEN MEANS MEAN. I WAS IN THE BLIND AND SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT OF NOT KNOWN AND BEEN THINKING IT WAS HARMLESS. IT IS TO A POINT WHERE YOU WAGER AN ACT OF CRIME AND GOING OUT TRICK OR TREATING BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT SPIRITUALLY YOU ARE ENTERTAINING THE BELIEFS OF ANOTHER.

HOW MANY MUSLIMS CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS?
HOW MANY JEHOVAHS WITNESSES CELEBRATE EASTER?

THEY KNOW THE FACTS OF WHAT IS IN THERE BELIEFS. TOO OFTEN AS CHRISTIANS PEOPLE WANNA AVOID THE FACTS. BUT YOU CAN'T TRY AND ACCEPT EVERYTHING AS OK. EITHER YOU FOR OR AGAINST.

ALSO TO CALL ONE A HYPOCRITE AS A CHRISTIAN IS JUDGEMENT, DON'T YOU KNOW YOU WILL BE JUDGED FOR WHAT YOU JUDGE OTHERS AS.

THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON ACCORDING TO CHRISTIAN BELIEFS SO NO ONE IS EXPECTED TO BE PERFECT.

JUST FOR A FINAL NOTE MY MESSAGE WAS TO INFORM NOT INVOKE MEANINGLESS CONVERSATION.

VISIT WWW.WICCANS.COM I WILL SAY IF YOU ARE NOT STRONG IN YOUR RELIGION DO NOT GO THERE UNLESS YOU PLAN ON CONSIDERING THE WAYS OF THE WICCANS AS YOUR OWN. BECAUSE IT HAS TONS OF THINGS TO SUCK YOU IN.

[DST Love]

Boy, I tell you people take that judgment passage way out of context.

To quote you, CodeBlue:
ALSO TO CALL ONE A HYPOCRITE AS A CHRISTIAN IS JUDGEMENT, DON'T YOU KNOW YOU WILL BE JUDGED FOR WHAT YOU JUDGE OTHERS AS.

I used "hypocrite" in my title because of what the word means not to necessarily call someone a hypocrite. But it's funny how you noted my post because I am showing an opposing view, but I noticed you didn't say anything about the post in another forum that agreed with you but also used the word hypocrite. In fact you commended the post. Anyway, maybe this will make us all shape up and get "right" when we know that if we expect certain things from one another that we should also know that others expect that very same thing from us as well.

Your other quote:
THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON ACCORDING TO CHRISTIAN BELIEFS SO NO ONE IS EXPECTED TO BE PERFECT.

Please stop it. It's not even that serious. I'm definitely not perfect and I think we all know that no one is perfect. Do you plan to not correct the improper behavior or actions of your kids, friends, spouse, etc. just because "no one is expected to be perfect"? Well I know that if my siblings, spouse, family members, or future kids act up, make mistakes, mess-up, etc., even though I know that they are not "perfect", I plan to point out the wrongdoing to them and then give them some suggestions on how I think they may be able to correct it. And I would hope that they would do the same for me, even though they're not supposed to expect me to be "perfect" as you say.

But anyway, I am not judging as you say, but merely pointing out an observation. Would you rather me use the word "contradictory"? Same thing. In my opinion, referring to the Bible, to judge is to put one's self above another, which I did not do. At no time in my post did I say that if one did "contradict" themselves that they are of poor character, not worthy of heaven, or anything else. I know at times I may contradict myself on matters that are small or large. But I hope that someone points it out to me so that I can learn something and will not continue to contradict myself on that same issue again. Example (just an example): let's say I admantly expressed that I won't eat bread/grain/wheat products because I know it to be very harmful to the body, but then I added that I do like croutons in my salad, one would not be "judging" me by simply pointing out my "contradiction". Maybe I didn't realize that croutons are of that substance. Now what if no one pointed my contradiction out because they thought they'd be "judging" me as you say. Well then that just took away an opportunity for me to find out something I didn't know and possibly be very helpful to me. Or what if I did know that croutons are a bread substance and someone pointed out my "contradiction". I would just take it as a learning lesson for me to try to be consistent in what I say. Aren't we all on this Earth to help, learn from and assist one another? Well that's why I think God made Eve for Adam as well as put us all here together, as opposed to God leaving Adam to be alone.

So please don't try and start trouble or have attitude as if my post was directed towards you because that's definitely not what this post is about. And my fellow GCers know that I am not a trouble maker. You can't post something and then expect everyone to post exactly what you want to hear (or read). One only grows when they listen to others' perspectives. And that means me seeing yours and you seeing mine. Maybe not agreeing but just understanding and accepting.

[DreamfulOne]

I personally do not celebrate or support halloween due to my spiritual beliefs but also because as you get older the need to dress up and become someone you are not is not intriguing to me. I think it is a sad phenomenon to see grown people dressed up in costumes and supporting this day. What is it's significance? NOTHING! What purpose does it serve? NONE! But this is all MY opinion.

I do watch movies of a "scary" nature, but I also watch movies that are in the genre of comedy, drama, adventurous. Just because I don't celebrate HALLOWEEN, because yes I do believe that in some essence it is giving the DEVIL glory and I will not have any part of that, does not mean that I'm hypocritical by watching scary movies, or movies with violence.

So I guess then it would be hypocritical of me for watching LAW and Order, CSI, Undercover, or any other television program with violence. NO I think not.

[DST Love]

Originally posted by DreamfulOne
I personally do not celebrate or support halloween due to my spiritual beliefs but also because as you get older the need to dress up and become someone you are not is not intriguing to me. I think it is a sad phenomenon to see grown people dressed up in costumes and supporting this day. What is it's significance? NOTHING! What purpose does it serve? NONE! But this is all MY opinion.

I do watch movies of a "scary" nature, but I also watch movies that are in the genre of comedy, drama, adventurous. Just because I don't celebrate HALLOWEEN, because yes I do believe that in some essence it is giving the DEVIL glory and I will not have any part of that, does not mean that I'm hypocritical by watching scary movies, or movies with violence.

So I guess then it would be hypocritical of me for watching LAW and Order, CSI, Undercover, or any other television program with violence. NO I think not.

Thank you very much for responding !! Everyone is very much entitled to their own opinion and their own way of living. We will just have to agree to disagree.

For the record, my post was not pertaining to violence in films, it was just about demons/evil spirits/evil people killing others in scary films, since some say that Halloween is about demons and such.

Now I personally like haunted houses on Halloween for the same reason I like to watch a scary movie on a Thursday night. I just like to be scared. Matter of fact, my boyfriend and I went to a haunted house last night (I thought we'd be the only grown folks there but I saw quite a few older couples. We like to act like kids and remind ourselves of our childhood every now and then). Now we didn't go to the haunted house to support or glorify the devil. We simply wanted to be scared just like when we've watched "Scream", "Friday the 13th", Michael Myers, etc. For us personally, it's only about being scared and not about worshiping Satan. When we attend a haunted house, we are no more thinking about or glorifying Satan than when we just watch scary movies.

However being a Christian, I definitely would agree with you as far as how people may view Halloween. I definitely do no condone participating in Halloween activities as a way of denying Christ or worshiping Satan.

[HopefulProspective]

I was raised in a very active christian household, and I celebrated halloween as a child but we were never allowed to dress up as devils, witches etc...

Now as an adult, halloween just doesn't do anything for me. But as a mother, I do understand that children really get into Halloween. I didn't want to take the fun aspect out of it for my son, so we tried something a little different. Last night, my children, nephews, cousins and sister had a party for the kids that we called a "HOLY GHOST" party for the kids. They absolutely loved it. We watched some movies, painted one anothers faces, had hotdogs and made cookies while we let the kids pass out the candy. We played games with a religious message.

Now, I really don't like scary movies, so I generally don't see them. Especially the ones about the devil and evil spirits about to take over the world. I really don't like those, and I never have. And I do not let my child watch them.

[DST Love]

HopefulProspective,
That sounds like it was fun. My aunt was telling me about something like that that her kids did at their church. I don't remember dressing up as anything evil when I was coming up either. Honestly, I don't even remember any of my costumes, but I know I was always something nice.

I remember when I was little, this church (not the church I belonged to growing up) used to host a "Halloween" type night. They had their own little haunted house that you had to crawl through. It was very generic but scary for little kids. But there wasn't anything demonic there and the church folks would begin and end the night with prayer. Personally, I think that that church just realized that people just like the scariness of Halloween, the candy and nothing more. They too use to play religious games for prizes. Also, I think they'd rather had the children in the church where it was safer than just roaming the streets.

[Ideal08]

As a Christian, it kills me to hear people call it a pagan holiday, or a day of the dead. I learned that Halloween was a day to SCARE AWAY evil spirits so that the SAINTS would be safe on Nov. 1st, All Saints Day. Anyway, here is the Halloween research that I have... It could be wrong, but I don't think so. Please, post your research...

America is a melting pot of cultures from all over the world. Because we are a nation of people from many lands, our holidays tend to blend bits and pieces from different traditions into one American celebration. Halloween is one of the best examples of a holiday with a rich heritage of blending.

October 31. Halloween. Costumes and Jack O'Lanterns. Trick or Treat and bonfires. We generally see it as a harmless children's celebration. And it is. Now. The history of Halloween, however, dates back before Christianity and involves death and evil spirits and fears of all sorts.

Let's start with the date, October 31. When mankind first started to settle down into villages, there were two sources of food. You farmed and you raised cattle. Cattle were easy. On May first, you drove the cattle out into your field. On November first, you brought them back into the barn for the winter. Your entire year was two seasons - growing season and winter. Life and Death. Beltane and Samhain. Since November first was the start of the
season of death, when food grew scarce and the plants all died, it was also the night to honor the Lord of the Dead, Anwinn. The belief was that spirits of those who had died during that year also gathered that night, driven out of the bare woods and empty fields. The spirits returned to their homes and needed the help of their kin to cross over to the land of the dead. Relatives would hollow out turnips and gourds and use them to carry the
spirits to the proper location.

Not just good spirits were loose on Samhain - evil spirits and goblins also roamed the earth. To protect your relative's spirit, you'd paint a scary face on the gourd to chase the evil spirits away. And to play it safe, you'd also disguise yourself by painting your face with hideous paints and donning a wild costume.

This just left the problem of the faeries. Faeries also ran free on the Eve of Samhain. Faeries weren't evil, they weren't good. They were faeries. They liked rewarding good deeds and did not like to be crossed. And on Samhain, the faeries would disguise themselves as beggars and go door to door asking for handouts. Those who gave them food were rewarded. Those who slammed the door tended to experience some unpleasantness.

Bonfires were very popular part of the ceremony in the Celtic countries. In Ireland, the fires were all allowed to go out. A large bonfire was lit in the center of town and sacrifices were thrown in. From this one central bonfire in each town, all the hearths and fireplaces were re lit. The same ceremony took place in Scotland, but the Scots also believed that you could tell the future by staring into the bonfire.

In 43 AD, the Roman Empire conquered the Celts and Celts and Romans found themselves living in the same villages. The Celtic festival of Samhain was celebrated at the same time as Pomona, a Roman celebration of the harvest. As the two cultures lived together, their cultures began to merge and suddenly apples and harvests became part of the celebration.

Readers will notice that until now we haven't actually said the word Halloween. This is because it still didn't exist. Over the next 500 years, the Catholic Church grew in power until, under Pope Gregory, it had converted most of Europe and the British Islands to Christianity. Pope Gregory's successor, Pope Boniface 4th, desperately wanted to eliminate pagan ceremonies. Pope Boniface felt that as long as the old festivals were still celebrated, the church's control wasn't complete. He also knew that if he banned the festivals, he'd have a full blown riot on his hands. So he decided to replace the old festival with a new festival and the church created All Saints' Day, a holy day to honor all the saints.

The problem with All Saints' Day was it was a holy day, not a festival. The people simply celebrated both of them. Two hundred years later the church had still not succeeded in getting rid of the pagan holiday. Pope Gregory the 3rd, however, had a new idea. He changed the rules so that All Saints' day always fell on the exact day as Samhain. And to celebrate All Saints' Day, young men were to go door to door begging for food for the town poor.
Villagers were allowed to dress up in costume to represent a saint. Now, instead of dressing up to chase away evil spirits, you dressed up to honor the saints.

For the next 700 years, the Church felt it had won the battle because the Celts celebrated All Saints' Day. The Celts, on the other hand, thought they had won because they still had their holiday with the original ceremonies. Neither realized that Samhain and All Saints' Day were blurring into one holiday. By the 1500's, you couldn't separate the two anymore. Of course, by
this time, no one called it All Saints' Day. Now it was All Hallows' Day. The night before All Hallows' Day was of course, All Hallows' Evening, or in the slang of the villagers, Hallow Evening or simply Halloween.

This may have been the end of it except for one significant development. On Halloween, 1517, Martin Luther began trying to reform the Catholic Church. His reformation ended up as the Protestant Church, the followers of which didn't believe in saints. No saints meant no All Hallows' Day. No All Hallows' Day meant no Halloween. The Celts have never given up a party without a fight, so the Halloween festivities were moved to November 5 - Guy
Fawkes Day. Guy Fawkes was a minor player in a Catholic plot to blow up the English Parliament, which was Protestant. So, although technically, the celebration was to commemorate the failure of the plot, it was Halloween. Bonfires were lit across the country. People made lanterns from carved out turnips and children went begging for money.

Meanwhile, in the new world, the settlers were all Protestant and Halloween was technically a Catholic holiday. The original colonists in this country found ANY celebration immoral, never mind a Catholic one. In fact, celebrating Christmas in the Massachusetts colony was illegal, punishable by banishment or death.

After the American Revolution, Halloween still never really caught on in America. Most of the country was farmland, and the people too far spread out to share different celebrations from Europe. Any chance to get together was looked forward to - barn raisings, quilting bees, taffy pulls. Eventually, a fall holiday called the Autumn Play Party developed. People would gather and tell ghost stories, dance and sing and feast and light bonfires. The
children would stage a school pageant where they paraded in costumes. Sound familiar?

The Autumn Play Parties lasted until the Industrial revolution. After that, the majority of Americans lived in cities and had no need for such get togethers. By the end of the Civil War, only Episcopalians and Catholics celebrated All Saints' Day and Halloween, and the two religions combined made up less than 5% of the population. Concerned about letting a part of their heritage fade away, the two religions began an aggressive campaign to put those two holidays on all public calendars. The first year All Saints' Day and Halloween showed up on the calendars, the newspapers and magazines made a big deal about it. Suddenly, everyone knew about Halloween and began
celebrating it by lighting bonfires and having masquerade parties.

In the late 1800's, nearly 7.4 million immigrants came to America, bringing their European customs with them. Seven hundred thousand Irish Catholics came over during the seven-year potato famine alone. These immigrants may have brought their customs with them, but once they saw how plentiful pumpkins were in the New World, it didn't take them long to start hollowing out jack O'lanterns instead of turnips.

In 1921, Anoka, Minnesota celebrated the first official city wide
observation of Halloween with a pumpkin bowl, a costumed square dance and two parades. After that, it didn't take Halloween long to go nationwide. New York started celebrating in 1923 and LA in 1925. the hollowed out turnips, but the disguised fairies begging door to door had become trick or treat. Bonfires remained popular, but not for relighting fires and telling the
future.

So if it appears on October 31 that the wind sounds a little too mournful as it whistles through the skeletal fingers of the bare trees, it's only your imagination. And if the nip in the air seems to bear the chilling touch of the grave on it, it's only fall foreshadowing the arrival of winter. It has nothing to do with the ghosts and goblins that once called this night their own. And as you peer out into the stygian blackness of this night, if something should rustle through the dead leaves, just remember that the
faeries dance no more in the realms of man. - It is only Halloween.

[Ideal08]

My sisters of DST, I want to apologize for the length of my previous post, but I wanted to include it in the convo... If you feel that it is too much, moderators, please delete!

[Little32]

Thanks Ideal for breaking it down.

[DST Love]

Thank you very much Ideal08 AND CodeBlue for posting your research. I honestly do appreciate reading both views. Well one thing I know I've learned in life is that people can find any information to support whatever it is that they believe. The KKK swears up and down that there are scriptures in the Bible that support their feelings about Black and Jewish people. My point, people will search for and pay more attention to any information that they feel can support their ideas. I don't believe people do this on purpose. It's just logical and understandable that when one encounters something that expresses or shares their thoughts and views then they are more likely to focus only on that.

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by DST Love
Thank you very much Ideal08 AND CodeBlue for posting your research. I honestly do appreciate reading both views. Well one thing I know I've learned in life is that people can find any information to support whatever it is that they believe. The KKK swears up and down that there are scriptures in the Bible that support their feelings about Black and Jewish people. My point, people will search for and pay more attention to any information that they feel can support their ideas. I don't believe people do this on purpose. It's just logical and understandable that when one encounters something that expresses or shares their thoughts and views then they are more likely to focus only on that.

I concur!

I, too, appreciated CodeBlue's hidden meanings of the colors and symbols of Halloween (even though it's not in this thread). Now, those were things I had NEVER seen before. You learn something new everyday, even if it's from someone who has an opposing POV. Not to mention, it makes you think about your belief system. None of us are so full of ourselves that we can't waiver from our current opinions, y'know?

[DST Love]

Originally posted by Ideal08


I concur!

I, too, appreciated CodeBlue's hidden meanings of the colors and symbols of Halloween (even though it's not in this thread). Now, those were things I had NEVER seen before. You learn something new everyday, even if it's from someone who has an opposing POV. Not to mention, it makes you think about your belief system. None of us are so full of ourselves that we can't waiver from our current opinions, y'know?

Okay so first off, why are you and I not working today !! 'Cause I sure have a lot of stuff I need to be doing. I think I'm already on weekend mode.

Sorry this is so long, but here it goes.
Now why is that I can tell that you (Ideal08) and I are no longer in college !! Your last three sentences are exactly what I say all the time. Matter of fact, my boyfriend and I were just discussing this type of stuff last night. It's funny how at every point in your life, you think you know so much. But as you get older and approach a new part of your life, you realize that maybe you don't know as much as you thought you did.

Not that one's beliefs, values, or morals should necessarily change ('cause mine haven't too much), but your viewpoints on certain issues will. I've always considered myself a very strong minded and opinionated person (others consider me that too, so what ) but for these years since I've graduated college, I've realized that a few (just a few ) things I thought weren't really my thoughts afterall. They were either my family's, teachers, friends, etc. And it wasn't my fault, I just hadn't been challenged yet on certain particular issues. And on those few issues, I didn't necessarily stop thinking them, I just had to fully understand WHY I thought them. You know, and not just repeat it or think it because that's what I've always heard or been told. Once you graduate college and become a full fledged adult (meaning not just being 18 or 21, but being independent financially, mentally, spiritually, physically) and experience a lot more, I think you really start to understand that the real lessons of life are just beginning and there's a lot more for you to learn over time. You learn how to accept, not necessarily adopt them, but accept that other people have different point of views. You also realize that at each point in your life be it 25, 40, 80 years old, you're going to have to reassess yourself. I see how my grandparents who are usually stuck in their ways actually appreciate my opinion on things because they know that I may have encountered something that, even in all of their years, they didn't know about. Point: don't be so into your own opinion that you're not open to hearing an opposing view because you might just miss an important piece of knowledge.

I alway say that having your views, beliefs, values, and thoughts challenged should do one of three things:

1. Reinforce what you already thought, believed after REALLY listening to and understanding an opposing opinion
2. Add a little bit to what you thought or believed
3. Totally change what you thought, believed, etc. (which shows you must have not really believed it to begin with)

Any three of these things will (or at least should) broaden your perspective and make you more accepting of others opinions. Either way I think one needs to be challenged from time to time just to be sure that you know why YOU think what you think as well as to make sure that you're not just holding onto views and beliefs because that's all you ever known or encountered.

While I know personally, that I think my family, friends, teachers, etc. laid a great foundation for me on several aspects, it's up to me on a regular basis to ensure that I completely understand why I think, feel or believe something.