French Parliament Debates Burqa Ban

[Nanners52674]

Paris, France (CNN) -- The French parliament begins debate Tuesday on a bill that would ban women from wearing Islamic veils, such as the burqa, that fully cover the face and body.
A vote is not expected until next week, after which the measure, if passed, will go to the French Senate for a vote likely in the fall.
The French Council of Ministers approved the measure in May, saying veils that cover the face "cannot be tolerated in any public place." Their approval sent the bill to parliament.
The parliamentary debate starting Tuesday is the latest step in France's efforts to ban the burqa, niqab and other Muslim garments that cover a woman's face.
A panel of French lawmakers recommended a ban last year, and lawmakers unanimously passed a non-binding resolution in May calling the full-face veil contrary to the laws of the nation.
"Given the damage it produces on those rules which allow the life in community, ensure the dignity of the person and equality between sexes, this practice, even if it is voluntary, cannot be tolerated in any public place," the French government said when it sent the measure to parliament in May.
The bill envisions a fine of 150 euros ($190) and/or a citizenship course as punishment for wearing a face-covering veil.
Forcing a woman to wear a niqab or a burqa would be punishable by a year in prison or a 15,000-euro ($19,000) fine, the government said, calling it "a new form of enslavement that the republic cannot accept on its soil."
The measure would take effect six months after passage, giving authorities time to try to persuade women who veil themselves voluntarily to stop.
The French Council of State has warned that the ban could be incompatible with international human rights law and the country's own constitution. The council advises on laws, but the government is not required to follow its recommendations.
Amnesty International urged French lawmakers in May not to approve the ban.
"A complete ban on the covering of the face would violate the rights to freedom of expression and religion of those women who wear the burqa or the niqab in public as an expression of their identity or beliefs," said John Dalhuisen, Amnesty International's expert on discrimination in Europe.
Belgium's lower house of parliament passed a similar ban in April.
If that bill is approved by the upper house and signed into law, it will be the first national ban in Europe on the burqa, a full-body cover that includes a mesh over the face, and the niqab, a full-face veil that leaves an opening only for the eyes.
The hijab, which tightly covers the hair and neck but not the face, and the chador, which covers the body but not the face, apparently would not be banned by either law.
The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life estimates that France has about 3.5 million Muslims, or about 6 percent of the population.
France does not keep its own statistics on religious affiliation of the population, in keeping with its laws requiring the state to be strictly secular.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe...nce.burqa.ban/

[Drolefille]

Which will result in those women choosing to or being forced to stay home. Whether they wear the burqa willingly or whether they are required to, the only people this hurts is the women.

It's not like it's a halloween mask worn for shits and giggles.

The French are going through a real identity crisis right now from what I understand. Their revolution left them with just as many ideas of what it means to be French as ours did of what it means to be American. And for them it means a very secular society and a very "French" society and that excludes a lot of the immigrants, Muslim or otherwise.

I wonder if passed whether it will end up being ruled unconstitutional or result in EU sanctions or something. I'm not sure exactly what the EU could do if it did pass.

[Nanners52674]

You're absolutely right Drole that it will only hurt the women. I get wanting to be a secular society, but I think this is a line that government shouldn't be crossing.

[agzg]

This reminds me very much of the USSR, PRC. DNW.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

You're absolutely right Drole that it will only hurt the women. I get wanting to be a secular society, but I think this is a line that government shouldn't be crossing.

I agree, personally. I'd like a secular government in that laws and practices are not based off religious preferences or teachings, but not one that messes with personal religious expression. I'm not a fan of the concept behind a lot of "modest" religious dress - that the women must hide the shape of their bodies from the men who apparently otherwise would rape everyone in sight - but if freely chosen I don't have a problem with it. (And there is a blurred line between chosen, worn because of tradition, expected to wear and forced to wear)

[Psi U MC Vito]

From what I was told, the EU actually has a lot of power to interfere in the internal governmental of a nation if it violates one of the treaties. Also I don't get how they see themselves being a secular society if they are trying to pass laws limiting religious freedom.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

From what I was told, the EU actually has a lot of power to interfere in the internal governmental of a nation if it violates one of the treaties. Also I don't get how they see themselves being a secular society if they are trying to pass laws limiting religious freedom.

They only guarantee religious freedom in private, not in public spaces. They can even prosecute sects that are considered to be cults and don't look fondly on the Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses and others.

In theory they see this ban as prohibiting people walking around with their face covered up at banks, offices, stores, etc. In practice some people are very anti-Muslim/immigrant (and automatically equate the two).

ETA: and not sure how the EU would view it. I think it counts as a human rights violation but I don't know what happens next. Odds are they're not quite sure either.

[ThetaPrincess24]

I have mixed feelings on the issue. On one hand I could see where covering your whole face may be an issue at the driver's license office where you have to have a photo ID, or at a bank (similar to why we cant wear hoods or sunglasses, etc into one here), but I dont see what the big deal is with wearing a face veil if you are simply walking around in public, shopping, etc.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ThetaPrincess24

I have mixed feelings on the issue. On one hand I could see where covering your whole face may be an issue at the driver's license office where you have to have a photo ID, or at a bank (similar to why we cant wear hoods or sunglasses, etc into one here), but I dont see what the big deal is with wearing a face veil if you are simply walking around in public, shopping, etc.

In European countries, don't they make a lot more use of CCD cameras and facial recognition software to track people? Might this be more a national security issue than a religious freedom issue?

It'll be interesting to see what the EU Human Rights courts do about this. They recently ruled that internet use is a fundamental human right... I don't think France's ban stands much of a chance.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Kevin

In European countries, don't they make a lot more use of CCD cameras and facial recognition software to track people? Might this be more a national security issue than a religious freedom issue?

That might be the spin, but sunglasses, motorcycle helmets, etc. aren't banned, are they?

Indeed, given France's recent history of rioting, government interference, and (some would argue) institutional racism, "national security" doesn't really pass the smell test.

While I understand that other religious symbols like rosaries or yarmulkes don't have any real recent history of being 'forced' upon individuals, the fact that only one religious practice is being targeted this explicitly seems to speak for itself. I'm surprised that the notion that the banning is being done under the guise of "protecting" women hasn't drawn more ire, too.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by ThetaPrincess24

I have mixed feelings on the issue. On one hand I could see where covering your whole face may be an issue at the driver's license office where you have to have a photo ID, or at a bank (similar to why we cant wear hoods or sunglasses, etc into one here), but I dont see what the big deal is with wearing a face veil if you are simply walking around in public, shopping, etc.

This reminds me of stores putting up "No wearing of masks inside" signs on Halloween.

BTW
Didn't this whole thing in France get started because a lady refused to take off her headdress for her Gov ID picture?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

This reminds me of stores putting up "No wearing of masks inside" signs on Halloween.

BTW
Didn't this whole thing in France get started because a lady refused to take off her headdress for her Gov ID picture?

Anti-Muslim sentiment in France has existed since at least the Battle of Tours.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

That might be the spin, but sunglasses, motorcycle helmets, etc. aren't banned, are they?

Indeed, given France's recent history of rioting, government interference, and (some would argue) institutional racism, "national security" doesn't really pass the smell test.

While I understand that other religious symbols like rosaries or yarmulkes don't have any real recent history of being 'forced' upon individuals, the fact that only one religious practice is being targeted this explicitly seems to speak for itself. I'm surprised that the notion that the banning is being done under the guise of "protecting" women hasn't drawn more ire, too.

Actually school kids (and possibly teachers?) can't wear religious jewelry or paraphenalia in France either. Unless it's something that's tucked under a shirt. No skullcaps, turbans, head scarves, etc. But yes this is unique as far as "being in public" being the standard.