We Are Not Your Soldiers

[Senusret I]

Somebody shared this with me on facebook today. This will undoubtedly be an unpopular opinion on GC, but it's always good to hear many sides of a debate.

http://www.wearenotyoursoldiers.org

The We Are Not Your Soldiers tour is not your typical classroom counter-recruiting presentation. The World Can’t Wait movement has teamed up with military veterans and military family members to bring the truth to high school & college students about military recruiters and what they are really recruiting for. This tour exposes the realities of the war, including vets talking about their own on-the-ground experience in rounding up people, rape and the consistent use of torture on innocent people. This tour exposes the lies of recruiters and stirs up debate & critical thinking amongst a whole new generation of young people.

[DaemonSeid]

Wow @ the ad.

Well, while it is good for these kids to get informed...that is what they need to be doing before they sign their lives away. BECOMING INFORMED. No one is putting a gun to their head and telling them to enlist.

On the other hand having dealt with the military and what it tells students, I have also noted that in low income areas they never tell kids about going to college first, exposing themselves to the military via ROTC and entering the military with a commission (and their degree).

Thankfully they haven't reinstated the draft.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

No one is putting a gun to their head and telling them to enlist.

I sort of disagree because the government and the military know why a lot of these people are enlisting and nationalism (and even the stupid anti-terrorists motive) isn't why.

I agree with you about thankfully not reinstating the draft. I only know a couple of people who eagerly enlisted after 9/11. After they returned, they felt like fools.

I hate everything the military stands for. I understand that a military is a necessity in a world filled with war and conflict. I still hate everything it stands for. I appreciate how people of my parents' generation used the military for what it was good for--get a good kitchen position if possible and let the military put you through college. The stakes are higher now. Fuck the military.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I sort of disagree because the government and the military know why a lot of these people are enlisting and nationalism (and even the stupid anti-terrorists motive) isn't why.

I agree with you about thankfully not reinstating the draft. I only know a couple of people who eagerly enlisted after 9/11. After they returned, they felt like fools.

I hate everything the military stands for. I understand that a military is a necessity in a world filled with war and conflict. I still hate everything it stands for. I appreciate how people of my parents' generation used the military for what it was good for--get a good kitchen position if possible and let the military put you through college. The stakes are higher now. Fuck the military.

Yup.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Wow @ the ad.

I'd say so. Those custom Greek stoles are amazing!!

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

I'd say so. Those custom Greek stoles are amazing!!

I'm getting "$50,000 for enlisting. Military.com"

[epchick]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Well, while it is good for these kids to get informed...that is what they need to be doing before they sign their lives away. BECOMING INFORMED.

I personally don't like the military recruiters and the tactics they use to 'dupe' high schoolers into entering the military (although I am a big supporter of our troops). It's all about being informed.

People should chose to be in the military because that is what they feel is their 'calling' not because they can get buttloads of $$ to go to college. My 15 year old cousin feels that the only way she will be able to afford college is to join the Air Force. I'm just trying to keep her informed of the reality joining the military means...not what she perceives it to be. So that if she ultimately chooses to join, then it won't be for the wrong reasons.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I'm getting "$50,000 for enlisting. Military.com"

Oh.

Okay, i got that one now too. I didn't even notice the ones up there before.

[ZTA72]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Well, while it is good for these kids to get informed...that is what they need to be doing before they sign their lives away. BECOMING INFORMED. No one is putting a gun to their head and telling them to enlist.

On the other hand having dealt with the military and what it tells students, I have also noted that in low income areas they never tell kids about going to college first, exposing themselves to the military via ROTC and entering the military with a commission (and their degree).

Thankfully they haven't reinstated the draft.

Having joined the Army (direct commission), I can speak from experience...^^^^Get everything in writing!! Recruiters will tell students/potential enlistees anything to get them to sign. I had a great experience and am now reapng the benefits. But, I warn everyone who considers the military, very little happens the way the recruiters say it will.

If I were in the age group to join today...I would have to think long and hard about it. Life is much different in the military in a war zone.

[KSUViolet06]

Everyone I know who is in the military has the same advice for HS kids that you guys have said.

They say that kids need to ACTUALLY TALK to people they know in the community who are in that branch. Not just the recruiter.

They also insist on getting things in writing, and say that just because the recruiter says "oh you'll be doing this super extra special tactical awesome GI Joe Saving Private Ryan Top Gun job once you're done with basic" doesn't mean it will happen.

[WCsweet<3]

This is really coincidental for me!

I am currently organizing a women to give a speech to my chapter about her experience in being in the military. The woman was so excited when I contacted her because she believes it necessary for anyone even thinking about joining to talk to someone with experience. She joined because she needed money for college and that was all the information she had before she joined. When she got to boot camp she was like "what is this?" and she really wants to prevent that from happening to others. Not that she discourages people from signing up, she just wants people to know what they are getting into.

[FHwku]

the advice here in this thread is really good.

that website/group's main goal is anti-war protest with the overall mission of creating a "culture of resistance to military recruiting as a key part of stopping these wars."

which is fine, if that's what you believe in... but it seems naive to me. teaching those kids to inform themselves seems like a better use of their resources than the scared-straight approach about the "realities of the war, including vets talking about their own on-the-ground experience in rounding up people, rape and the consistent use of torture on innocent people."

sounds like the vets they have on the speaking tour should be in jail for torture and rape.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by FHwku

it seems naive to me

incredibly naive.

[amanda6035]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

This tour exposes the realities of the war, including vets talking about their own on-the-ground experience in rounding up people, rape and the consistent use of torture on innocent people. This tour exposes the lies of recruiters and stirs up debate & critical thinking amongst a whole new generation of young people.[/I]

Really, if you don't know what the military actually is, then you're an IDIOT. Yes, recruiters lie through their teeth. They are no different than a used car salesman. One of my very good friends from the military took on recruiting duty for several years and HATED it because he wasn't a good salesman. This is a guy who looved the military, and could always find something to smile about, even in the crummiest of situations.

I don't care where you come from, the military is not just an alternative to college in which you where a uniform and look cool. War is a reality. Crappy situations are a reality. Yes, you should get everything in writing from your recruiter. I have no sympathy for the poor 18 year old shmuck who signs a contract without reading it and fully understanding what they are getting themselves into. I started my recruitment process at 17, and finally signed my papers shortly after turning 18 (though my parents would have signed with me at 17 if I had been willing.)

I hated the military lifestyle. I did my job and I did it to the best of my ability, but the environment was hell. My superiors were complete pricks who had no personal values in regards to the families they had back home. That's why I served my 4 years as honorably as I could and got the hell out. I refused to continue to surround myself by a bunch of worthless people with no moral values. Those who did have values were few and far between. However, if I could do it, anybody can do it.

[Boodleboy322]

Regarding the rapists and men/women torturing detainees/POWs, the articles of the Geneva Conventions, Uniform Code of Military Justice and laws exist to provide justice.

Questionable leadership in your Squadron, platoon or company should be addressed via the chain of command. If that is to no avail there are other resources. Any member of the Armed Forces who believes that himself or herself is wronged by his/her commanding officer may request redress via an Article 138 complaint. If such redress is refused, a complaint may be made and a superior officer must examine into the complaint. Also, you may file a complaint with the Inspector General.

Just war is waged in terms of self-defense or in defense of another with sufficient provocation.

The Just War Doctrine, a Christina Medieval theory dating back to Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas with origins as far back as Cicero, sets criteria in the right to go to war as well as the right to conduct war. Just cause is defined as the reason for going to war needs to be just and cannot therefore be solely for recapturing things taken or punishing people who have done wrong. Innocent life must be in imminent danger and intervention must be to protect life. While there may be rights and wrongs on all sides of a conflict, to override the presumption against the use of force, the injustice suffered by one party must significantly outweigh that suffered by the other. Only duly constituted authorities may wage war. The use of Force may be used only in a truly just cause and solely for that purpose. Arms may not be used in a futile cause or in a case where disproportionate measures are required to achieve success. Force may be used only after all peaceful and viable alternatives have been seriously tried and exhausted or are clearly not practical. It may be clear that the other side is using negotiations as a delaying tactic and will not make meaningful concessions. The anticipated benefits of waging a war must be proportionate to its expected evils or harms.

As a military veteran, former Active Navy & Air National Guard, I agree that recruit candidates should be well informed of their choices prior to making any decisions. That decision will affect the rest of their lives. I believe in National Security and the ideals of War. There are always wars to be fought (whether defending a nation or in your personal life). National Security provides the blanket of freedom that many of us take for granted. I salute my fellow brothers in combat and harms way in the past, present and future.

Semper Fi,

Boodleboy322