If No Deferred Recruitment, What's A Good Alternative?

[ASTalumna06]

I'm looking for opinions here.

Through the fraternities (mainly) on campus, Penn State Behrend is looking to do away with deferred recruitment. While I'm back and forth about where I stand on this issue right now, if this does pass, the administration is looking for a kind of "deal", where the Greek organizations work to improve themselves and/or the new member process in exchange for allowing first semester freshmen to receive bids.

One of the options is a kind of "tier" system, where chapters are evaluated and then placed within 3 different tiers which would determine how many first semester freshmen they could bid. For example, the first tier would be your basics (have at least a 2.5 chapter GPA, have a minimum number of philanthropy hours and educational programs), which would be set at marks that basically all chapters should be at right now. Tier 2 and 3 would be more difficult to reach (like having a 3.5 cumulative GPA for tier 3, for example). These higher levels would allow a chapter to bid more first semester freshmen.

Another option that was brought up is to have a supplemental new member program. From what I've heard, it would consist of one meeting a week, for 6-8 weeks, and all of the new members from all the Greek organizations would be required to attend. There would be fun activities and icebreakers, but for the most part, these meetings would cover things like time management, study skills, budgeting your money, risk management issues, etc., in order to prepare new members for being a part of Greek life, as well as to give them information regarding living and working in college, and beyond. And again, this would be a supplemental "new member program" that wouldn't conflict with or hinder our individual chapters' programs.

What are your opinions about these proposed systems?

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I'm looking for opinions here.

Through the fraternities (mainly) on campus, Penn State Behrend is looking to do away with deferred recruitment. While I'm back and forth about where I stand on this issue right now, if this does pass, the administration is looking for a kind of "deal", where the Greek organizations work to improve themselves and/or the new member process in exchange for allowing first semester freshmen to receive bids.

One of the options is a kind of "tier" system, where chapters are evaluated and then placed within 3 different tiers which would determine how many first semester freshmen they could bid. For example, the first tier would be your basics (have at least a 2.5 chapter GPA, have a minimum number of philanthropy hours and educational programs), which would be set at marks that basically all chapters should be at right now. Tier 2 and 3 would be more difficult to reach (like having a 3.5 cumulative GPA for tier 3, for example). These higher levels would allow a chapter to bid more first semester freshmen.

Another option that was brought up is to have a supplemental new member program. From what I've heard, it would consist of one meeting a week, for 6-8 weeks, and all of the new members from all the Greek organizations would be required to attend. There would be fun activities and icebreakers, but for the most part, these meetings would cover things like time management, study skills, budgeting your money, risk management issues, etc., in order to prepare new members for being a part of Greek life, as well as to give them information regarding living and working in college, and beyond. And again, this would be a supplemental "new member program" that wouldn't conflict with or hinder our individual chapters' programs.

What are your opinions about these proposed systems?

I think both sound like bad ideas. Putting GLOs into a tier system is just begging for some chapters to close. Who wants to join an officially labeled "third tier" organization? It's good for the school to have standards and goals for the greeks, but I think it's bad for the school to slap a label onto a chapter...PNMs can judge chapters for themselves. And by restricting numbers of new members, the school will make it impossible for some chapters to ever build themselves up.

I'm not really in favor of the "supplemental" new member program either if it's really 6-8 weeks in length. New members are already forced to attend one new member meeting and one chapter meeting per week, and you want to add a third meeting? In addition to other new member activities? Maybe one afternoon workshop is appropriate, but a weekly meeting is a bit much. Plus, why does the school feel that greeks should be singled out to receive those lessons in time management, budgeting money, etc? All students can benefit from that information, and it's usually what schools cover in a New Student Orientation. If your school doesn't offer NSO, perhaps it should.

[Senusret I]

ASTalumna06, could you help me understand something....

Is it the GLOs that wish to do away with deferred recruitment, or the university?

[Kansas City]

I agree with both of PeppyGPhiB points and particularly thought that this ...

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

I'm not really in favor of the "supplemental" new member program either if it's really 6-8 weeks in length. New members are already forced to attend one new member meeting and one chapter meeting per week, and you want to add a third meeting? In addition to other new member activities? Maybe one afternoon workshop is appropriate, but a weekly meeting is a bit much. Plus, why does the school feel that greeks should be singled out to receive those lessons in time management, budgeting money, etc? All students can benefit from that information, and it's usually what schools cover in a New Student Orientation. If your school doesn't offer NSO, perhaps it should.

... sounded like a freshman orientation/seminar type of class. The university I advise at has one program for new Greek members (BANG = Becoming a new Greek) on what to expect from Greek life (anti-hazing, grade requirements, etc.) but it is a one time presentation and not part of a semester long curriculum in an already busy new member schedule. It is beneficial in that it helps new members to meet people from other organizations that are going through a similar experience but I don't see a need for continued lectures on the subject.

Perhaps if the OP could better explain the reasons for these potential requirements? I'd be curious to hear what they are.

[ASTalumna06]

Here's the problem. The fraternities are pushing hard for deferred recruitment to be done away with... because for the most part, they try to "work around" this rule anyway, and they have been known to illegally bid new members. The Greek Advisor is somewhat aware of this issue, and is looking for a way to help the fraternities get this passed, but with restrictions. She is attempting to work with the administration to find the best solution possible.

To be honest, I'm surprised the school is even considering this change. And the only way they will come remotely close to passing this is if the Greeks are willing to work with them, also. What I find so confusing about this, though, is that there aren't any major problems with the Greeks on campus. No major hazing incidents have occurred recently, all chapters are doing well academically, and all are putting in a VERY large number of community service hours. To require more from the new members, and from the active brothers and sisters, when we're all doing so well seems kind of unnecessary.

Naturally, with the supplemental new member program, many people are concerned with the time issue. And another thing to consider are the ages/semester standing of the new members. We're not a campus that bids mostly freshmen. In the time I've been a member, I've even seen 2 seniors become sisters of my chapter. Therefore, this program would also be presented to upperclassmen. I understand that the lessons could probably apply to anyone of any age, but the idea is to integrate the first semester freshmen into Greek life and to the campus. I highly doubt juniors and seniors would want to sit through these lessons that they should have learned a few years back.

And with the tier system... I don't think a lot of people are too thrilled with this idea. The details of it haven't even been established, and already it seems as if the Greeks are shying away from it. To me, it would just get too confusing.

[ASTalumna06]

I'd also like to add... I'm not sure how the sororities as a whole feel about changing deferred recruitment, but from what I've heard so far, they're pushing for it. This kind of confuses me as all three chapters seem to be doing much better with recruitment as of late.

Personally, I think that everyone is trying to change everything all at once, and it's going to create A LOT of confusion.

[33girl]

The supplemental member program sounds like a bunch of touchy feely anti-Greek bullshit in disguise - you know how there are those clinics who say they'll help you decide what to do about your pregnancy and then you get there and basically get shown giant posters of aborted fetuses? Like that.

The ONLY thing from the "tier" setup that is possibly feasible is GPA. If a fraternity has (example) a 3.0 GPA, they can bid 1st semester freshmen - if they have below that, they can't. That is IT. To rate them on anything else is completely unfair as everyone's national is different. Delta Chi is twice KDR's size nationally - I'm assuming with that difference, they have programs available that a smaller group simply does not. Not only that - there are only 3 fraternities - why on earth would there be 3 different tiers?

Sororities should stick to deferred rush.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

The supplemental member program sounds like a bunch of touchy feely anti-Greek bullshit in disguise - you know how there are those clinics who say they'll help you decide what to do about your pregnancy and then you get there and basically get shown giant posters of aborted fetuses? Like that.

The ONLY thing from the "tier" setup that is possibly feasible is GPA. If a fraternity has (example) a 3.0 GPA, they can bid 1st semester freshmen - if they have below that, they can't. That is IT. To rate them on anything else is completely unfair as everyone's national is different. Delta Chi is twice KDR's size nationally - I'm assuming with that difference, they have programs available that a smaller group simply does not. Not only that - there are only 3 fraternities - why on earth would there be 3 different tiers?

First of all, LOL at the first paragraph. And yes, I completely understand what you're saying.

The tier thing isn't meant to be "one fraternity is tier 1, another is tier 2, and the other is tier 3." All the chapters could be in tier 1.. or two could be in tier 2 while one of them is in tier 3... it would all depend on what they accomplished. Again, a very vague and complicated concept, IMO.

And I think the administration is listening to the Greeks concerning this issue, but they're not willing to hand over non-deferred recruitment so easily. They're making the chapters prove themselves, so to speak. I guess they're seeing how badly we really want this to happen.

It's just very confusing. The deferred recruitment discussion is at a standstill until a detailed system is proposed and agreed upon. Meanwhile, a discussion about changing sorority recruitment for the fall was just brought up in the last Panhellenic meeting on Tuesday. The discussion included changing from only COB to partially structured. Fortunately, it doesn't look like that's going to even come close to passing. No one here understands a quota system, and to throw that at girls the first week of the fall semester would be asking for chaos.

The Greek Advisor spoke to each chapter during their meetings this past week about all of the proposed changes, and had also mentioned discussing total. So...

Deferred recruitment, recruitment style and total are all being brought up at once, and I think the girls are overwhelmed already (especially with it being the very end of the spring semester).

[33girl]

They did (or maybe still do) the GPA thing at Clarion for the fraternities. I think it only suceeded in eliminating groups. Let's face it, the amount of people who choose a fraternity because they have the highest GPA is slim to none, and the freshmen probably don't fully understand why group A will take them and group B won't...it's like girls who don't understand silence rules and think sorority women are being snobby to them.

Then you also throw in the problem of fraternities either bidding guys for their high grades only, even if they really don't like them, or else encouraging the brothers to take a bunch of easy peasy courses to get the average up.

[ASTalumna06]

Things have been a little crazy in the recruitment department lately at PSB. We received word a few weeks ago that there will be no deferred recruitment for this upcoming school year. I believe that the administration is testing the waters to see how this works and whether or not the GLOs slip (more so academically than anything else) by allowing first semester freshmen to join. From there, they'll determine whether or not this will continue the following year and beyond.

From what I have heard, the supplemental new member program might be implemented. How this will work, I have no idea. Right now, I think some people, myself included, are simply frustrated because all of this information is coming to everyone over the summer through emails and phone calls. But I digress...

Basically, I'm looking for statistics (but not official ones, of course). I am wondering how bidding first semester freshmen will work on this campus, and I just want to get a general idea of what other's experiences were like. I think my greatest concern is whether or not first semester freshmen will see this as being too overwhelming to stick with it... especially considering we're not at a school where people know what it means to be Greek, and it's instilled in them when they're 5 that they have to join a GLO. So let me know...

1.) In general, how would you describe Greek life on your campus? (competitive vs. non-competitve, percentage of students who are Greek, location of the school: north vs. south, etc... be as specific as you'd like)
1.) Did your school have deferred recruitment?
2.) What was total? Or if you didn't reach total (or didn't follow this system at all) what was your average chapter size while at school?
3.) What were average new member class sizes for your chapter?
4.) On average, how many freshmen dropped out during the new member program? ... or provide more specific numbers if you have them and want to disclose that information.
5.) If a significant number of them dropped, for the most part, what were the reasons? (In trouble academically, too time consuming, money issues, etc.)
6.) Any other info that you think would be helpful.

Again, I'm not looking for anything official here. I'm just curious to see these trends in a general sense from other schools.

[annabella]

ugh. I don't even want to start in on my feelings on supplemental new member programs.... Mizzou allows bids for first semester freshman (they are also allowed to live in-house; most of the guys do). They do a weekly, mandatory coed meeting for all new NPC/IFC Greeks. It's awful, despite administration's best efforts. Everyone is broken up into groups of ~15-20, with 2 instructors (Greek upperclassmen, 1 male+1 female per group). Different topics were supposed to be addressed each week, and then everyone would have to troop on down to the auditorium for that week's speaker.

I could have handled it if it was a one-time presentation, but there's just something ironic about wasting an hour sitting through a presentation on time management.

How would they go about enforcing attendance/penalties for not attending? Would that go against the chapter or the individual?

I agree that a GPA tier system could be unfair. About 21% of my campus is greek, and fraternity pledge classes for fall range from 10-29ish. Most don't initiate their fall classes until well into spring, so the guys have to make grades first.

Something to consider: mandatory study hours during new member periods. There are some chapters here for which the new member average is substantially higher than the active member average as a result of mandatory study hours, not being allowed to go out, etc. How will the new pledge class GPA's figure into the whole chapter GPA?

ETA: grade stats for fall pledge classes (almost always first semester freshmen) here: http://mugreeklife.com/page.php?page_id=110315

[33girl]

I will be blunt: at my noncompetitive school, recruitment for first semester freshmen women was a horrible idea. Not only that, it was informal recruitment - they didn't have to visit all the groups at all!! They only were interested in the biggest and most popular groups and if they didn't get them, they became anti-Greek. I think that the reason for this was because a lot of the women rushing were the more stereotypical "sorority girl" - as opposed to when rush is deferred, and the women have a semester or 2 to realize that everyone isn't like Babs and Mandy from Animal House.

Our Greek advisor at the time actually said "we want to get them before they know any better." That's paraphrasing a bit, and I don't think that's the case at your school. But it was just another example of her complete incompetence.

IMO this went a long way towards killing off 2 sororities at our university, and giving a bad light to the Greek system that is still lingering, 10 years later.

And yeah, I am going to say, I think 1st semester rush works OK for the guys, because guys and girls are just different. Guys also don't have to worry about totals and quotas.

Other than a onetime one hour anti-hazing workshop, I think supplemental NM programs are a terrible idea, and I wouldn't be surprised if you lose some people because of them. Many colleges have a study skills or freshman program similar to this anyway - the NMs would end up sitting through the same stuff twice. If you don't have this sort of program, and if it IS really beneficial information, shouldn't it be offered to ALL freshmen? Limiting a program to Greeks will just create anti-Greek resentment. Also, I'm guessing that the pledge classes won't be freshmen only, and I think that asking a junior to take a study skills class is ridiculous.

I can't say as I blame the administration for wanting to show that 1st semester rush is a bad plan, because I agree, but they're doing it in an ass-backwards way, for the wrong reasons.

[Psi U MC Vito]

I know most of the greeks at my school actually prefer a deferred rush. It gives the orgs more time to get to know somebody before giving them a bid. Like I know a couple of my brothers I didn't like when they were rushing thier first semester, but once I got ot know them they both became some of my favorite.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

And yeah, I am going to say, I think 1st semester rush works OK for the guys, because guys and girls are just different. Guys also don't have to worry about totals and quotas.

Other than a onetime one hour anti-hazing workshop, I think supplemental NM programs are a terrible idea, and I wouldn't be surprised if you lose some people because of them. Many colleges have a study skills or freshman program similar to this anyway - the NMs would end up sitting through the same stuff twice. If you don't have this sort of program, and if it IS really beneficial information, shouldn't it be offered to ALL freshmen? Limiting a program to Greeks will just create anti-Greek resentment. Also, I'm guessing that the pledge classes won't be freshmen only, and I think that asking a junior to take a study skills class is ridiculous.

I can't say as I blame the administration for wanting to show that 1st semester rush is a bad plan, because I agree, but they're doing it in an ass-backwards way, for the wrong reasons.

I can completely understand having first semester recruitment for the guys. That's why this whole thing got started. And to be honest, the guys struggle a lot more than we do for members, they break the rule anyway, and it doesn't really make a difference for them between how many people drop first and second semester.

I think the supplemental new member program is going to be a disaster. My chapter will have 20 active sisters starting in the fall, and the only night they were all available for a business meeting was Sunday. The new members will have to attend that, plus their new member meeting AND this additional meeting. Some people are saying, "Well, if they're not willing to do that, then they're not willing to put the effort in to be Greek." I tell them, "Sorry, but if that was required of me, I'd never join.. especially in my first semester." My first semester was crazy. I was an Engineering major, I studied my a** off, and still struggled with my classes. I eventually switched my major, but my first semester was pretty much chaos. If I added three meetings a week, plus other activities going on, AND reading up about the sorority on my own, I'd probably have dropped out of school altogether.

Another problem I see with this... we already try very hard to get student athletes to join, but it's difficult with their already busy schedules. I remember years ago, when the TKEs were on campus, a lot of their members were on the baseball team. And before the KDRs were reinstated, their whole fraternity was on the soccer team. But I can only think of a handful of people who play sports now. I remember when I was active, for Greek Awards, we would have to nominate a girl from our chapter for Greek athlete of the year. There was one girl who was on the golf team, and she was always our nominee. So.. now they want new members to have three meetings a week? Athletes will never join.

I agree with having one workshop.. or maybe even two. I suggested maybe two Saturdays throughout the semester, for 3 or 4 hours, with a lunch and fun activities included, where everyone could meet each other, interact, and learn what it is to be Greek. But that never really went anywhere and some people said, "But who wants to show up on a Saturday?" I think I'd prefer 2 Saturdays to an hour, once a week for 8 weeks.

Again, I'm just trying to gather how much work this is really going to be. I forsee people dropping and paperwork piling up, and everything becoming more complicated than it needs to be. Fortunately, my chapter's president, while willing to try this new program, is also encouraging the sisters to still focus on sophomores and juniors and to not have an entire new member class of freshmen. It's never been that way before, and so many things have changed recently, that would just be one more thing to add to the mix.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by annabella

How would they go about enforcing attendance/penalties for not attending? Would that go against the chapter or the individual?

And to answer this question... I have absolutely no idea. There are going to be new members from 6 different organizations that all have to meet at one time during the week, and I'm sorry, but that's just not going to happen. I'm afraid there's going to be some resentment toward the people who aren't required to be there (because of class, another meeting, RA responsibilities, sports practices, work, etc.)