Hamas vs Israel in the streets of Gaza

[DaemonSeid]

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli troops battled Palestinian gunmen in a suburb of Gaza City Sunday in one of the fiercest ground battles so far as Israel's military inched toward Gaza's population centers.

A top Israeli defense official said Hamas has been badly hurt by the offensive in Gaza — especialy by the deaths of senior militants and shortages of ammunition — but predicted that the group would fight on.

The group "is not expected to raise a white flag," military intelligence chief Amos Yadlin told the Israeli Cabinet Sunday.

The fighting in the Sheikh Ajleen neighborhood erupted before dawn and continued through the morning as Israeli infantrymen and tanks advanced toward Gaza City and its approximately 400,000 residents, Palestinian witnesses said. Hamas and the smaller militant group Islamic Jihad said they ambushed the Israelis, leading to some of the heaviest fighting since Israel sent ground forces into the coastal territory on Jan. 3.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090111/...l_palestinians

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli troops battled Palestinian gunmen in a suburb of Gaza City Sunday in one of the fiercest ground battles so far as Israel's military inched toward Gaza's population centers.

A top Israeli defense official said Hamas has been badly hurt by the offensive in Gaza — especialy by the deaths of senior militants and shortages of ammunition — but predicted that the group would fight on.

The group "is not expected to raise a white flag," military intelligence chief Amos Yadlin told the Israeli Cabinet Sunday.

The fighting in the Sheikh Ajleen neighborhood erupted before dawn and continued through the morning as Israeli infantrymen and tanks advanced toward Gaza City and its approximately 400,000 residents, Palestinian witnesses said. Hamas and the smaller militant group Islamic Jihad said they ambushed the Israelis, leading to some of the heaviest fighting since Israel sent ground forces into the coastal territory on Jan. 3.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090111/...l_palestinians

Once again proving that Israel is awesome.

[AGDee]

I would say I'm pretty much in agreement with Ban who said "To both sides, I say: Just stop, now," the U.N. chief said. "Too many people have died. There has been too much civilian suffering. Too many people, Israelis and Palestinians, live in daily fear of their lives."

This is one of those conflicts that seemingly has no resolution. It's been going on for decades and will probably continue to go on for decades. Sad.

[SWTXBelle]

From a Paris paper -

"The European Union (EU) criticized the Israeli incursion into Gaza this week as a violation of international law. Louis Michel, the EU's aid chief, called upon Jerusalem "to respect their international obligations and ensure a humanitarian space for the delivery of vital relief." Michel underscored that "blocking access to people who are suffering and dying" forms a breach of "humanitarian law" as does the infliction itself of high number--some 500--of civilian casualties.
The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) has not respected international humanitarian aid efforts during its war on Gaza, given that only one crossing into Gaza is open and a naval blockade remains in place. The latter has been ongoing for eighteen months."

[Kevin]

Israel has a right to defend its people from terrorist attacks. Diplomacy has failed for decades. Perhaps it's time for a different tactic on Israel's part. They have the right to defend their people from terrorist attacks. This situation is 100% Hamas' fault, not Israel's. Hamas could have prevented this and negotiated their way to prosperity for their people, but apparently, that's not their end game.

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Israel has a right to defend its people from terrorist attacks. Diplomacy has failed for decades. Perhaps it's time for a different tactic on Israel's part. They have the right to defend their people from terrorist attacks. This situation is 100% Hamas' fault, not Israel's. Hamas could have prevented this and negotiated their way to prosperity for their people, but apparently, that's not their end game.

This situation is definitely not 100% Hamas' fault. Isreal did not have a right to the land in the first place and Israel definitely did not have the right to push the People into the small area of Gaza and then cut off their borders prohibiting trade and other essential economic functions. Isareal has a right to defend its people, but it does not have the right to slaughter innocent civilians while cutting them off from adequate help. The borders have been cut off for some time now. Its not like Hamas started an all out attack on Israel's citizens killing over 500 of them. The ratios are quite evident. 870:30 with the ratio of dead civilians looking something like 500:10. Want to know how to make a terrorist? Bomb their community consistantly, keep food and other essentials away from them, bomb mosques and schools, Kill more Civilans than "Hamas bad guys". That will turn people in to terrorists. Israel is completely wrong for this attack on Gaza. How do you justify the murders of innocent women and children?

FYI: Very Graphic!
These are some tuff unarmed terrorists. Throwing rocks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvwvxA9tgH4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K461x...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnIjp...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=But9m...eature=related

[SWTXBelle]

http://apnews.myway.com//article/200...D95NIRBG0.html


Even as a top Israeli envoy went to Egypt to discuss a cease-fire proposal, the military pushed farther into Gaza in an apparent effort to step up pressure on Hamas. Ground forces thrust deep into a crowded neighborhood for the first time, sending terrified residents fleeing for cover.
Shells also struck a hospital, five high-rise apartment buildings and a building housing media outlets in Gaza City, injuring several journalists. Bullets entered another building housing The Associated Press offices, entering a room where two staffers were working but wounding no one. The Foreign Press Association, representing journalists covering Israel and the Palestinian territories, demanded a halt to attacks on press buildings.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

This situation is definitely not 100% Hamas' fault. Isreal did not have a right to the land in the first place and Israel definitely did not have the right to push the People into the small area of Gaza and then cut off their borders prohibiting trade and other essential economic functions. Isareal has a right to defend its people, but it does not have the right to slaughter innocent civilians while cutting them off from adequate help. The borders have been cut off for some time now. Its not like Hamas started an all out attack on Israel's citizens killing over 500 of them. The ratios are quite evident. 870:30 with the ratio of dead civilians looking something like 500:10. Want to know how to make a terrorist? Bomb their community consistantly, keep food and other essentials away from them, bomb mosques and schools, Kill more Civilans than "Hamas bad guys". That will turn people in to terrorists. Israel is completely wrong for this attack on Gaza. How do you justify the murders of innocent women and children?

FYI: Very Graphic!
These are some tuff unarmed terrorists. Throwing rocks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvwvxA9tgH4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K461x...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnIjp...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=But9m...eature=related

Why did Israel not have a right to the land in the first place? Who even cares about that. The six-day war happened, the Arab countries tried to exterminate the Israelis, they got whipped. Sometimes when you go to war and get your ass handed to you, unpleasant things result.

As for the ratios, they're meaningless. This is the whole whiny argument that the countermeasures by Israel are not "proportional." What a crock of siht. If we had proportionally responded to 9/11, what would we have done? Flown a couple planes into the two tallest buildings in Afghanistan?

Israel has a right to defend its people. Diplomacy has failed for decades. You can't negotiate with someone whose central value is exterminating you. While appearing extreme, dealing a crushing blow to Hamas is about the only way Israel can stop these attacks.

The ratios of dead also fail to mention the fact that many of these dead (the great majority) are Palestinian fighters. Many of the rest are individuals purposely placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields. Israel drops leaflets and tells people to get the hell out of dodge if they don't want to have bombs dropped on them. They are not intentionally targetting civilians. Hamas, on the other hand is packing rockets with metal balls in an attempt to kill as many innocent civilians as possible. There's just no comparison.

Finally, as for your "you want to know how to make a terrorist" spiel, I don't think Israel can help that. A reasonably objective Palestinian, at least by western thought standards might view the situation as being mostly Hamas' fault, i.e., if they weren't shooting rockets at Israel's people, the Palestinian people would have food, electricity, shelter and security. Hamas knew that an invasion like this was likely if they continued their activities, and they did so despite repeated warnings. Finally, these folks from Hamas are ordering Palestinian children to locate themselves around probable Hamas targets as human shields. To my mind, if I'm a Palestinian, I'm dragging the nearest Hamas official out into the street and beating him to death for so recklessly endangering my people.

As an aside, I find the 'shock' and 'horror' of some at this event to be ridiculous. This sort of thing has been happening in various locations all over the world and on a much grander scale (Darfur, anybody?) and the world community has hardly peeped about it. Is it because you don't like Jews? Is it because you don't think the lives in Darfur are as important as those in Gaza?

[RU OX Alum]

Israel is the antithesis of the United States and our involvement with this nation is disgusting and abhorrent and goes against the founding principles of our Federal Republic.

[cheerfulgreek]

It all hit the fan a few years after WWII, and it's going to get far worse before it gets better.

[SWTXBelle]

U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the U.N. had given Israel the coordinates of the building and the compound was also clearly marked with U.N. flags and logos. Large stocks of food and fuel used to supply hospital and water pumps were at risk of destruction, as were valuable U.N. archives dating back to 1948, Abu Hasna said.


My question is - why? The crack Israel military surely didn't make a mistake, having been given the coordinates.

Still waiting . . .

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the U.N. had given Israel the coordinates of the building and the compound was also clearly marked with U.N. flags and logos. Large stocks of food and fuel used to supply hospital and water pumps were at risk of destruction, as were valuable U.N. archives dating back to 1948, Abu Hasna said.


My question is - why? The crack Israel military surely didn't make a mistake, having been given the coordinates.

Because they are just as hateful as the Nazi's before them. They think that their land is only for their people, and they won't stop until they get rid of everyone who doesn't tow that line.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Because they are just as hateful as the Nazi's before them. They think that their land is only for their people, and they won't stop until they get rid of everyone who doesn't tow that line.

Show me a gas chamber and you win. Otherwise, I'm invoking Godwin's Law. It is estimated that around 6 million Jews were exterminated during WWII in a plan calculated to quickly and efficiently eradicate them.

If the Israelis wanted to eliminate Gaza, they absolutely have the military might to do that. Instead, they're targeting a specific enemy and placing their own people in harm's way (house to house fighting with infantry) to try to minimize collateral damage.

There simply is no comparison. Trying to compare the Israelis of today to the Nazis is comical.

[RU OX Alum]

yeah 6 Million jews and probably more than 6 Million others

The methods of the deaths don't matter. People who die because the Israelis bull-dozed their house are no less dead than someone who pushed into a gas chamber.

No one in the Gaza has anything to do with the war Israel is having with Hamas.

Actually, it is comparable. Some find it comical? Everyone is in entitled to their opinion of humor. That doesn't make the note any less valid.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

The methods of the deaths don't matter. People who die because the Israelis bull-dozed their house are no less dead than someone who pushed into a gas chamber.

As far as people dieing when their homes are bulldozed is concerned -- first, who the hell stays in a house when a slow bulldozer is coming towards it? I would call this suicide rather than murder. It's not these bulldozers sneak up on folks. Secondly, I believe the policy of bulldozing houses had something to do with retaliating against suicide bombers' families or terrorist collaborators. I find Israel's policy here to be reasonable. It's a lot like a civil forfeiture proceeding in the U.S., except that with the current situation in Gaza, Israel technically "owning" someone's home via civil forfeiture would be meaningless as no one would respect their property right. Let's not forget that in the vast majority of these cases, the people in those homes knowingly raised kids as murderers or cohabitated with individuals conspiring to murder innocent civilians. That is not a blameless situation and to pretend to be shocked and appalled in these situations completely ignores the reality of the situation and the fact that Israel has a right to defend itself.

No one in the Gaza has anything to do with the war Israel is having with Hamas.

I don't see how you could possibly believe this, but whatever.

Actually, it is comparable. Some find it comical? Everyone is in entitled to their opinion of humor. That doesn't make the note any less valid.

Actually, it is less valid. Genocide is different from war. 800 (with the majority being legitimate targets) is different than 6 million+ targets

It's not hard to see that.