kids can't speak and i partly blame rap

cash78mere · #1 11-08-2002, 07:53 PM

ugh.

i am so frustrated. i try and try to teach my students (4th grade) correct grammar and what do i get? nonsense from rap songs that they think is acceptable!

they tell me they "went to get their hair did" like in that nasty song. i try to tell them they "went to get their hair done" but it's like they don't believe me because they heard the other way in a song so that has to be correct. it drives me crazy.

then another student told me that her brother's "baby mamma" came to visit. i said no, it's the mother of the baby, not a baby mamma. literally, a baby momma is a mom that is a baby. they look at me like i have 4 heads!

ugh

i swear, these kids will NEVER pass the freaking 4th grade ELA when they write and speak like this. wake up parents and correct these kids like i am trying so hard to do in vain! there are NO EXCUSES for this nonsense! it's one thing to not know correct grammar, but it's another thing to be ignorant.

KillarneyRose · #2 11-08-2002, 08:17 PM

Are you sure it's the rap? Unfortunately, I'm sure the parents' grammar is just as horrible as the kids'! Where do you think they got it from?

Cash78mere, you have your work cut out for you! Reason number 798,254 I think educators are hideously underpaid.

Dionysus · #3 11-08-2002, 08:25 PM

LOL, you need to increase your GQ (ghetto quotient). Those are just sayings. Otherwise, yeah, I get what you're saying about rap music and bad grammar.

Hermione · #4 11-08-2002, 08:46 PM

As long as we're distributing blame here, I'd like to add computers and the Internet to the long list of culprits. As well-educated adults, we are aware of the rules of grammar and how they apply. Therefore, we can realize that they are not as necessary in informal settings like instant messaging as they are in formal settings like a business letter or the SAT. Even my mother, the English teacher, omits capital letters when instant messaging and emailing me. The point is that she knows what she's doing and always uses proper grammar in her speech and writing when it matters. My brother, who's considerably younger than I, speaks "e-slang" all the time. He actually says things such as "LOL" and "BRB" in serious conversation. He does not know how to converse with adults or how to speak in semi-formal or formal settings, nor does he see such knowledge as being important. While I'm sure that part of his behaviour is a rebellion against the authority in our family (our parents are English teachers and I, his older sister, am studying to be one), it is still representative of his age group's general antipathy to such things. The importance of the written word died with the advent of mass communications, and the importance of the spoken word seems to be following in its wake.

Kevin · #5 11-08-2002, 08:58 PM

If they ever want to stand a chance beyond "do u want fries with that?" they should definitely check into learning correct grammar.

I agree their language issues most likely aren't from just music. Probably from their parents as well. Peers aren't typically as strong an influence on that age group. Nor is music.

Eclipse · #6 11-08-2002, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cash78mere
ugh.

i am so frustrated. i try and try to teach my students (4th grade) correct grammar and what do i get? nonsense from rap songs that they think is acceptable!

they tell me they "went to get their hair did" like in that nasty song. i try to tell them they "went to get their hair done" but it's like they don't believe me because they heard the other way in a song so that has to be correct. it drives me crazy.

then another student told me that her brother's "baby mamma" came to visit. i said no, it's the mother of the baby, not a baby mamma. literally, a baby momma is a mom that is a baby. they look at me like i have 4 heads!

ugh i swear, these kids will NEVER pass the freaking 4th grade ELA when they write and speak like this. wake up parents and correct these kids like i am trying so hard to do in vain! there are NO EXCUSES for this nonsense! it's one thing to not know correct grammar, but it's another thing to be ignorant.

cash78mere,
If you don't mind me asking, where do you teach? I saw on a previous post that most of your student are black. If they live in a lower income area they problem hear most of the people they come in contact with speak this way. In addition, there are some true linguinstic reasons that many black people drop certain letters when speaking and conjugate verbs incorrectly. I know the whole ebonics thing has been relegated to a joke, but, while I disagree with the premise, there is some truth to it. You may want to do a little research on the subject. You would probably be suprised. It's not just the Gullah people from the Sea Islands who have kept parts of their original African languages. To compound the problem, SOME people in the Black community have glorified speaking nonstandard English as some badge of Blackness to wear proudly.

I saw a program a few years ago that dealt with an offshoot of this subject and one of the things the teacher did was talk about just like we have inside and out side voices (i.e. no yelling inside, but it's o.k. outside), we have two types of language. One is for formal settings and the other is for "home" or with friends. When a student would say something like "I had went to get my hair did after school." , the teacher would ask her to 'code switch" it (or something like that, it's been a while) and the student would then use her more formal, school language and say "I went to get my hair done after school." Have you tried something like this?

The other thing that I think you seriously need to evaluate is your attitude toward your students. I know you are frustrated, and being the daughter of 2 educators, I know it is one of the most thankless jobs out there, but when you say things like
"it's one thing to not know correct grammar, but it's another thing to be ignorant. I wonder if you have already made up your mind about their capacity to learn and achieve.

This brings to mind a great book for someone in your position. It's The Conspiracy to Destroy Black Boys" by Dr. Jawanza Kunjufu. He also wrote a book called (I think) To be Popular or Smart or something like that, that talks about our unique cultural phenomena that says to speak standard English is to 'talk white' and therefor loose major cool points with the fellas. Most successful Black folks I know are actually bilingual--we can go from standard to street in 2 seconds flat.

You just need to help your students do that.

Whew...dind't mean to write a book!

valkyrie · #7 11-08-2002, 10:06 PM

Well said, Eclipse.

Hermione · #8 11-08-2002, 11:16 PM

In defense of Cash78mere, I honestly took that sentence to mean, "It's one thing not to know correct grammar, but it's quite another to be intentionally ignorant." And I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. In high school, certain of my African American classmates were given no end of crap by other African Americans for speaking "like whites." The latter group was intentionally ignorant of English grammar. Some of them went even so far as to accuse their peers who spoke proper English of "trying to be white."

Such a sordid state of affairs...

I should really read that book. I'll be taking Multicultural Education in the spring.

cash78mere · #9 11-08-2002, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eclipse

The other thing that I think you seriously need to evaluate is your attitude toward your students. I know you are frustrated, and being the daughter of 2 educators, I know it is one of the most thankless jobs out there, but when you say things like
"it's one thing to not know correct grammar, but it's another thing to be ignorant. I wonder if you have already made up your mind about their capacity to learn and achieve.

ummm...i don't have an attitude problem, thanks.

i don't think that was a very nice thing for you to say.

hermione understood the way i meant that to sound. it's not just my black kids who are saying this, it's the student body as a whole! it makes me nuts and then the state wants to know why our kids aren't passing the test!

it's not a matter of these kids wanting to emulate the rappers and whatever, they HONESTLY think that is the correct way to say things and will argue with me about how to say it. and that's why my subject says i "partly blame" rap. it's not entirely rap's fault, it is our society.

i haven't made up my mind about anything. you don't know anything about the way i teach. this is ONE thing i am frustrated with (there are lots more though!).

i am doing everything in my power to TEACH these kids and i am good at what i do! i have recently brought up 2 kids to be tested who have obviously been learning disabled since they entered school. but no one did anything about it and they are now in my 4th grade class and barely able to read! but they try so hard, it kills me to see them struggle.

this isn't a race thing, it's a cultural thing. these kids are being brought up in a climate where they don't understand basic english anymore. like hermione said, i know several young adults who say LOL! people don't understand the proper way to speak anymore.

posted by eclipse:
"To compound the problem, SOME people in the Black community have glorified speaking nonstandard English as some badge of Blackness to wear proudly. "

i think that is an EXCELLENT statement. i do see a handful of parents in my school who DO fit that description, but certainly not all or a majority. they are teaching their children to "rebel" in the wrong ways and unfortunately it is going to negatively affect them in the future.
***********************

please don't turn this into an ebonics/linguistic thing. that's not the intention of the post. i have my opinions about that subject, but what i would really like to discuss is HOW to get these kids on the right track when they think "getting their hair did" is proper english.

any ideas????

kdonline · #10 11-09-2002, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cash78mere

please don't turn this into an ebonics/linguistic thing. that's not the intention of the post. i have my opinions about that subject, but what i would really like to discuss is HOW to get these kids on the right track when they think "getting their hair did" is proper english.

1) Keep correcting them. Every time.
2) Have them write the sentence correctly. 100 times (just kidding!)
3) Don't respond to them when they speak incorrectly.
4) Find a similar sentence in a book & show them.
5) Explain to them that rappers are like "actors" and are performing lines that way.
6) Read them a story/have them read Mark Twain's short story called "Jumping Frog of Calaveras County" so they can learn how writers use Southern accents and regional vocabulary. Compare it to how rappers write their lyrics now..."But we don't really talk that way!"
7) Tell them that they should learn to speak correctly, because when they get to middle school, their English teachers will be angry with them and say, "Who was your 4th grade teacher!?" And they wouldn't want you to be embarrassed, would they?

Or tell them their high school teachers will ask the same thing. (I really did - when I taught LD students for a few years. And then also, when I taught Intro to Journalism..)

DeltaSigStan · #11 11-09-2002, 01:31 AM

I remember my social studies teacher in 7th grade marked us down for saying "I got no pencil" or "I aint got no pencil".

Hermione · #12 11-09-2002, 01:49 AM

I like the inside/outside voice thing.

Kevin · #13 11-09-2002, 11:37 AM

Code switching is VERY useful. I work in a job where my clientele is extremely diverse. I'll speak with an M.D. completely different than I'd talk with someone from rural Oklahoma. It gets results and it does engender trust.

My boss speaks very quickly and doesn't slow down for anyone. Many of my customers complain and are happy that I speak Okie with them

Munchkin03 · #14 11-09-2002, 12:57 PM

I agree with Eclipse 100%. The kids aren't "ignorant"...they're torn between two cultures. There are a lot of books about this, how kids from schools like yours are often brilliant, but are torn between maintaining cultural credibility and doing well in school. The students, especially the male students, who choose the latter are often targeted later on in their schooling.

You can only blame "rap music" so much...I grew up listening to rap (although Run-DMC and 80s rap seemed much more eloquent), but I was surrounded by adults and other role models who speak the King's English.

I don't think it was an Ebonics/linguistics thing...it's cultural-racial. And that realization has to be made before any progress can be made...here, there, or anywhere.

DeltaSigStan · #15 11-09-2002, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Munchkin03
You can only blame "rap music" so much...I grew up listening to rap (although Run-DMC and 80s rap seemed much more eloquent), but I was surrounded by adults and other role models who speak the King's English.

I know a lot of people who grew up like that, including myself.