The 9/11 rant (formerly part of the Rumsfeld thread)

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
The terrorsists made a choice to commit their evil acts and deprive others of freedom, life, and comfort.... so we (the rest of the world) must make sure that we do not make the same choice and deny others those rights. The terrorists must be caught and subject to the full power of the law, so that people in the region see that the law has power and applied equally.. now if they are tried under Iraqi or US law the maximum penalty is death so I don't see the problem with staying in the bounds of the law. The problem arises if they are captured and tried under the law of the only other main partner in the coalition.. the UK does not support the death penalty and hasn't for years even in the face of terrorism.

You deal with your Canadian terrorists as you wish. When was the last time terrorists struck at Canadian targets by the way?

-Rudey
--We, the Americans, will deal with ours as we see fit.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
You deal with your Canadian terrorists as you wish. When was the last time terrorists struck at Canadian targets by the way?

-Rudey
--We, the Americans, will deal with ours as we see fit.

Sigh... last time I checked Canadians were killed on Sept. 11th, and Canadians were attacked by the Taliban/Al Queda in Afghanistan, and Canadians have been abducted by insurgents in Iraq.... and we have dealt with it in our own way. Are the results better or worse? Who knows... other than our citizens have (so far) been released by their captors, and attacks are down on our troops in Afghanistan; but what will happen in the future in light of more threats by Al Queda only time will tell.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
Sigh... last time I checked Canadians were killed on Sept. 11th, and Canadians were attacked by the Taliban/Al Queda in Afghanistan, and Canadians have been abducted by insurgents in Iraq.... and we have dealt with it in our own way. Are the results better or worse? Who knows... other than our citizens have (so far) been released by their captors, and attacks are down on our troops in Afghanistan; but what will happen in the future in light of more threats by Al Queda only time will tell.

Sigh...last time I checked Sept. 11th occured on American soil and targetted Americans - anyone else was not targetted, but tasted the same evil.

Last time I checked Canadians were attacked by the Taliban/Al Queda in Afghanistan after America was attacked on Sept. 11th and America went to war - anyone else that was there was there to support America but was not there in the same context as America.

Last time I checked there have been far more American casualties and kidnappings in Iraq - how many were there of Canadians? Regardless, the Canadians again were not there for the same reasons as Americans and weren't suffering the same way as Americans.

Again, you catch your own terrorists and do what you want to them OK? We experience things that you don't and will do what we want to ours. Should your country take issue with what we do, they can impose sanctions or attack us. Please pass that message along.

-Rudey

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by RACooper
Sigh... last time I checked Canadians were killed on Sept. 11th

Any Canadians who died on September 11th did so because they were in the US. Canada does not have an equal voice in dealing with the aftermath of 9-11, and they don't deserve an equal voice.

Moving past the people who died on that day, Canada had no real estate destroyed, while we had several billion dollars worth. Canadian citizens experienced no effects from the air in the area that was toxic for months on end. And Canada was not attacked by terrorists who expressed a desire to detonate a nuclear device on Canadian soil in the future.

The US is "King of the Hill," and there are those who are jealous. Specifically, Jihadists are projecting there hatred for modernity onto the US, and not Canada because Canada is not relevant.

Most importantly, for me, Canadians could disengage from the effects of 9-11 by changing a TV channel. For me, and many others, there was no such luxury. I had to live with 9-11 on that day, and I still live with it. My health suffered for weeks because of the toxic air (until I bought an air purrifier, which I did before free ones were given out,) and I still don't know what the long term health effects will be.

If Canadians suffered, they did so by choice. No one ever gave me the choice.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
Sigh...last time I checked Sept. 11th occured on American soil and targetted Americans - anyone else was not targetted, but tasted the same evil.

Last time I checked Canadians were attacked by the Taliban/Al Queda in Afghanistan after America was attacked on Sept. 11th and America went to war - anyone else that was there was there to support America but was not there in the same context as America.

Do your homework... Canadians (as well as French and Brits) were in Afghanistan before Sept.11th as party of a number of multi-national aid organizations... and were regularly subject to attacks and harrasment.

Last time I checked there have been far more American casualties and kidnappings in Iraq - how many were there of Canadians? Regardless, the Canadians again were not there for the same reasons as Americans and weren't suffering the same way as Americans.

Well it stands to reason doesn't it... shear odds really... there are so many more Americans than any other foreign nationals in country.. but regardless other countries including Canada have had their citizens taken hostage too... including nations that did not support the war with Iraq, but are there to try to help the people of Iraq rebuild.

Again, you catch your own terrorists and do what you want to them OK? We experience things that you don't and will do what we want to ours. Should your country take issue with what we do, they can impose sanctions or attack us. Please pass that message along.

-Rudey

Yep we catch terrorists we do what we do, but mostly it is patterned off the British and other European tactics and legal practices (you know since they have so much experience and all).

[RACooper]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Most importantly, for me, Canadians could disengage from the effects of 9-11 by changing a TV channel. For me, and many others, there was no such luxury.

Yeah.. except for the evacuation of downtown, and the fear that the hundreds of flight redirected could carry terrorists,
and the scambling of military fighters over the city, and the sate of emergency declared by the police and fire department, and the military deployed in front of the armories and consulats, and the fact every channel (tv and radio) was covering the event, and the many people holding a vigil at the consulate, and the stranded and distraught passengers that regular people let into their homes, and the desperate phone calls to locate family living or working in New York, and the government urging calm... but other than that it wasn't really noticable way up here on another planet

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by RACooper
Yeah.. except for the evacuation of downtown, and the fear that the hundreds of flight redirected could carry terrorists,
and the scambling of military fighters over the city, and the sate of emergency declared by the police and fire department, and the military deployed in front of the armories and consulats, and the fact every channel (tv and radio) was covering the event, and the many people holding a vigil at the consulate, and the stranded and distraught passengers that regular people let into their homes, and the desperate phone calls to locate family living or working in New York, and the government urging calm.

You have absolutely no idea what 9-11 was to those who actually lived through it. It wasn't a week of watching it on TV and making phone calls. No one in Canada really lived through it, but because you have to feel relevant, you had to connect to it. That's fine, but no one in Canada lived through 9-11. Anyone, and everyone in Canada who was disturbed by media images had the luxury of turning the TV or radio off.

No one in Canada had their home shake from an impact that registered on seismographs. No one in Canada had to breath toxic air for months. No one in Canada had to show photo ID to get to their home for months because they were living under de facto martial law.

Anything that Canada did was by choice. Canada did not live through 9-11, and Canada was not targeted on 9-11.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
You have absolutely no idea what 9-11 was to those who actually lived through it. It wasn't a week of watching it on TV and making phone calls. No one in Canada really lived through it, but because you have to feel relevant, you had to connect to it. That's fine, but no one in Canada lived through 9-11. Anyone, and everyone in Canada who was disturbed by media images had the luxury of turning the TV or radio off.

No one in Canada had their home shake from an impact that registered on seismographs. No one in Canada had to breath toxic air for months. No one in Canada had to show photo ID to get to their home for months because they were living under de facto martial law.

Anything that Canada did was by choice. Canada did not live through 9-11, and Canada was not targeted on 9-11.

So by your specific definition of what 9/11 was only New Yorkers in the specific area of the attack were the ones who suffered through it huh?

So I didn't feel shit when I was trying to contact my father or uncle who were supposed to be at the WTC? Guess I didn't feel shit trying to find-out about brothers from the chapter visiting the girlfriends in NYC either huh? Guess what people other than you have emotional attachments to the events of 9/11 so get off your high horse...

Oh and in case you care here is a link to my uncle's site:
http://www.september11victims.com/se...nfo.asp?ID=488
or
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/mem...ople/4045.html
I'll make sure to mention that you have suffered more than Erica or Maureen too.

Well I'm sorry that you suffered personally but that does not dimish the impact the event had on others in the US as well as the world... look at the numbers of dead in the attack and their nationalities and guess what you find a sizable portion are not US citizens... WTC was an international trading centre that handled business from all over the world, and housed international corporations...

All that aside many Canadians have family and friends in the US, and some lost friends and family, others felt the extreme empathy for the loss the Americans suffered. As for the photo ID thing, guess what I had to show ID every day when I went to work next door the the US consulate and bypass the security barriers that closed off the area around the consulate.....

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by RACooper
So by your specific definition of what 9/11 was only New Yorkers in the specific area of the attack were the ones who suffered through it huh?

If you didn't attend any 9-11 funerals, or work or live south of Canal Street in Manhattan, then the only way that you were affected was by choice, and very, very minimal.

So I didn't feel shit when I was trying to contact my father or uncle who were supposed to be at the WTC? Guess I didn't feel shit trying to find-out about brothers from the chapter visiting the girlfriends in NYC either huh?

You experienced what I did in 1993. I was scared and worried until I contacted my mom and sister, then it was just me watching CNN a thousand miles away. Being there, and living there is so far beyond that, but you just can't grasp that.

Guess what people other than you have emotional attachments to the events of 9/11 so get off your high horse...

Get off of yours. You are manufacturing your attachment to 9-11, and if you can't get past that, then you need to get help from a mental health professional. You projected your emotions to an event that had nothing to do with Canada, but you have to feel just as important as those who were there, and that is very, very sad.

Well I'm sorry that you suffered personally but that does not dimish the impact the event had on others in the US as well as the world... look at the numbers of dead in the attack and their nationalities and guess what you find a sizable portion are not US citizens...

If you were really sorry, you wouldn't trivialize those who really suffered. You didn't really suffer, and if you were bothered by what you saw on CNN, you had the luxury to turn it off. I know what the numbers were, and most of the people who died were Americans. More than 20% of those who died at the WTC were rescue workers.

WTC was an international trading centre that handled business from all over the world, and housed international corporations...

Actually, it wasn't, again proving that you know almost nothing about what happened down there. Most financial firms in New York were in Midtown, and those that were downtown were mostly in, or near Wall and Broad Streets. It was a symbolic attack based on the name, not the function of the WTC.

All that aside many Canadians have family and friends in the US, and some lost friends and family, others felt the extreme empathy for the loss the Americans suffered. As for the photo ID thing, guess what I had to show ID every day when I went to work next door the the US consulate and bypass the security barriers that closed off the area around the consulate.....

You absolutely don't get it. Showing your ID to get into work is par for the course with many companies, and is not the same thing as what many of us lived through. I had to show my drivers license to cross the street to go to the super market. I had to show my ID to cross the street to get back to my home. I had to walk more than an extra mile to get to my Mom because so much of Lower Manhattan was off limits. No one was allowed to drive in without clearance, and there were US Army everywhere. There was a mobile Secret Service command center parked down the block from me for months. All this happened while every street lamp was plastered with missing signs for loved ones.

I never had the luxury of turning CNN off. You did, and Canada did.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
I never had the luxury of turning CNN off. You did, and Canada did.

Hey Russ yes I could turn off the TV and the news but guess what so could you. Maybe I could choose not to go to work and not have to show my ID to the RCMP or Marines so I could get in the front door. Maybe I could forget that hey guess what I'm one uncle short because of the attack. But then I'd be a idiot blindly bubbling along in my ignorance... and I have no desire to be like you in that respect. So perhaps next time READ THE POST and SEE WHAT THE LINKS ARE!

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by RACooper
yes I could turn off the TV and the news but guess what so could you.

Wow, you just don't get it. Turning CNN off didn't allow me to escape the effects of 9-11, and that's the difference, but no matter how mant times I mention that, it just passes right through you. You really need help, and with Canada's wonderful universal health care, you should be able to get it.

As far as the ID thing goes, you just don't get it. Showing ID to get into work is just not the same thing. You've never lived under martial law. You don't understand, and you have absolutely no idea what it was like.

Now, since you probably only dine at restaurants with picture menus, I'll have to use pictures to explain this.

My Neighborhood on 9-11


Toronto on 9-11, or any other day


Even Forrest Gump can understand that.

[phigamucsb]

While I agree mostly with PhiPsiRuss, I would like to say that nobody knows what attachments RACooper had to anybody in the states. With that said, I think what PhiPsiRuss is trying to say is that the attacks of 9/11 were targeted solely against America and it is impossible for any foreigner to have the same connection to 9/11 as an American.

I believe that most Americans can't have quite the same connection to 9/11 as New Yorkers. I'm not saying that all Americans did not suffer, but I am saying that New Yorkers probably view 9/11 as an attack on their country (as I do), as well as an attack on their state, neighborhood, memories, and childhood.

This is a sensitive topic so I would suggest that everyone take it a little bit easy on the personal attacks. It is difficult for anyone to know what another human being has gone through.

[The1calledTKE]

Ok watch the name calling. I am sure you guys can get your points across without it.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss

As far as the ID thing goes, are you a complete idiot? Showing ID to get into work is just not the same thing. You've never lived under martial law. You don't understand, and you have absolutely no idea what it was like.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAH ... breathe.... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

No showing ID and being searched on a daily basis to approach my place of employment everyday, to then be followed by a further ID check and search upon entering the building, only to be further folloed up by not being to see through my window (mirrored) that overlooked the consulate .... then at the end of the day repeat process in reverse.

But I did admire you oh so noble advice of being able to involve myself emotional by choice in the effects of 9/11... so according to you as long as I chose not to bother worrying about family and friends, to ingore the news, stop going to work, not gone down to NYC to await news about my uncle, and not go to my uncle's funeral or memorial I could be properly aware of my place in the whole thing as a Canadian? Damn... silly me, I decided to be aware of my surroundings and my emotions.... oh well too late now... perhaps in the future I should never do or feel anything...

[winneythepooh7]

While people across the US and Canada and every other nation have felt the effects of 9/11 and lost loved ones, most people have forgotten about this event and really have no clue what those of us living in NY went through that day and still go through on a daily basis. I was sickened when back in December I went to Kittyhawk, North Carolina for the reinactment of the first flight. Security was a joke, as they had us pass under metal detectors but did not scan our phones or cameras. That isn't what bothered me so much~~what bothered me so much was actually listening to some very ignorant Southerners (and I know they were from the south because of their accents) joking around and making comments saying "Uh oh, if you have a bomb in your bag you better remove it". It wasn't like 1 or 2 random people either it was a whole crowd who were joking around, and also delibritely ignoring the signs that said DO NOT BRING IN BACKPACKS.
This is just an example of the ignorant people we have living in our country and it is such a shame. I think Russ has every right to say what he said and feel how he feels and others of us can empathize but by no means is that the same.