A member stomps on the American flag....what do you do?

damasa · #1 09-21-2002, 01:35 PM

Yep, you read it correctly. Thursday night one of our members (sober) decided to start talking about freedom in this country and how it doesn't truly exist. He then decided to pull down the American flag that we have in the front yard, bring it into the living room, and in front of almost every active member he starts stomping and spitting on it.

It was a very distrubing scene which ended up in a fight between him and another brother.

So what should be done about this? Should the member be expelled for doing something like that? What is your opinion?

Personally, I feel we should boot the fu#*$r out right now and some other members feel the same. Yet, there are others that don't think we should kick him out and now the long and tiring process begins.......

Rudey · #2 09-21-2002, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by damasa
Yep, you read it correctly. Thursday night one of our members (sober) decided to start talking about freedom in this country and how it doesn't truly exist. He then decided to pull down the American flag that we have in the front yard, bring it into the living room, and in front of almost every active member he starts stomping and spitting on it.

It was a very distrubing scene which ended up in a fight between him and another brother.

So what should be done about this? Should the member be expelled for doing something like that? What is your opinion?

Personally, I feel we should boot the fu#*$r out right now and some other members feel the same. Yet, there are others that don't think we should kick him out and now the long and tiring process begins.......

Take out a couple pictures of his family and stomp on them.

-Rudey
--Patriotic

Peaches-n-Cream · #3 09-21-2002, 01:51 PM

Your standards board will be working overtime on this one.

I think that you need to decide if this behavior is out of character or typical of this brother. If it is typical, you have a big problem. If it is out of character, he definitely needs to know that this is unacceptible behavior. A probationary period is an option.

The1calledTKE · #4 09-21-2002, 02:12 PM

Tough to say but if his values don't match fraternity standards give him the boot.

AXWhoah · #5 09-21-2002, 02:14 PM

Don't expell him, he could sue you for restricting his first amendment right. And yeah according to Texas v Johnson it does extend to defacing the flag. It was his right to say that, but you should pull him into Standards and tell him that behavior is not okay during fraternity times....

CutiePie2000 · #6 09-21-2002, 02:35 PM

It sounds to me like he was posturing for "shock value" in front of the group?

If he is whining that he has no freedom, then I invite him to travel a bit, go to the Middle East, go to Asia, go to Cuba (by way of Toronto), then come back and hopefully he will be a bit more grateful for his cushy life. Many countries like Germany and Israel have a MANDATORY military service for 2-3 years, so if he is whining about how he has no freedom, perhaps he could give that some thought. Quite frankly, I think he needs to be smacked!

I am not saying that Canada nor the USA are perfect, but I have travelled extensively (I have hit every continent, but South America and Antarctica) and all I can say is we have it pretty good here in North America. The only country that can hold a candle to our countries (i.e. Canada and USA) is Australia, and that's only because the weather is so fantastic!

As for what should your fraternity do? Don't kick him out for it, but I would certainly tell him that you found his behavior to be offensive and upsetting. He should also be made to either pay to have the flag replaced (if it was damaged or torn) or dry-cleaned.
Basically from the "Free Speech" angle, what he did (while objectionable) is permissible.
___________________________________
A day later....
Based on a subsequent post by damasa which provided more information about this individual, I have now changed my mind to "They should boot the member".

theta sig agd · #7 09-21-2002, 02:41 PM

I feel all you can do is say thank god ( or whatever you believe in) you live in a country where the speech is free enough to do what they did. It is his right to express the way he feels in that way.

Its not that I agree with what was done, but I wonder what has happened to make him feel this way. And not to start a controversy (sp?) but in a way he is right. We are free to do whatever or say what ever we want, but some things are at a price and there are limitations. Unfortunatley, this country has its flaws like everother country does and to say it is equally free for everyone....well, at this point I just dont agree. But its the freest place on the earth and I am proud to be here!

So I guess I dont feel he should be kicked out for an expression of free speech or due to some frustration. We all do crazy shit when we're pissed so maybe instead of getting together and trying to find ways to kick him out, you should think of some ways to be brotherly to him and find out what is causing him to feel that way and how to change it.

Thank you for your time!! I m done !!

Optimist Prime · #8 09-21-2002, 02:59 PM

If you kick him out you're just proving his point.

James · #9 09-21-2002, 03:33 PM

This is a very good point by Billy.

I would try and modify his behavior. Tell him you understand his point, but he chose to do that with a flag that wssn't his property in front of people that didn't want to deal with it.

So, tell him to buy his own flag and masturbate with it or whatever at home . . whatever floats his boat. But not to damage someone else's property.

He can over and feel free to deface his flag in front of the brothers all he wants, but he can expect an ass whipping if he does. So he better be tough enough to deal.

But kicking him out is kind of stupid and Nazi like.

Quote:

Originally posted by Optimist Prime
If you kick him out you're just proving his point.

Munchkin03 · #10 09-21-2002, 04:03 PM

Kicking him out would definitely prove his point. Like someone said, defacing the flag is completely protected under the First Amendment. So, there are no legal grounds for kicking him out, but it's a Standards issue--especially since it's Fraternity property. It's the same thing as if he tore down the Fraternity flag and stomped on it--actually maybe even less serious, since that seems to me to be an ejectable thing.

chopper816 · #11 09-21-2002, 04:55 PM

conduct unbecoming of a member=expulsion, if one of our guys did that, id want him out b/c his values arent what we all believe as brothers

LeslieAGD · #12 09-21-2002, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CutiePie2000
It sounds to me like he was posturing for "shock value" in front of the group

Yep, sure does.

PsychTau · #13 09-21-2002, 06:37 PM

Well, technically he is protected by law to jump up and down on the Flag, if it's his property. In this case, it really WASN'T his property. Plus, once a flag has touched the ground, it should be burned (according to STRICT Flag Etiquette). Therefore, the logical consequence of his behavior is to purchase a new flag, and raise it properly after a chapter meeting (or similar gathering). Enforcing the raising properly would mean he would have to read up on the Flag Etiquette, and could possibly educate the other members on that, making it a 'growing' experience for all. (I think an apology is also in order, but you can't really force him to apologize for his opinions, just his behavior re:someone elses property)

Besides that, I think a few brothers should have a heart to heart with him (his big, maybe?) to find out what's really going on. Is he feeling hopeless and trapped with all of the terrorism stuff going on? Is is something else that he chose to express that way? We all lose it from time to time, and do some really stupid, regretful things (but not always in front of an audience). I don't think he should be automatically expelled without trying to figure out what is going on and helping him with his problems first. If he continues to throw fits and destroy property, well. . .maybe the counseling center should get involved.

greekalumna · #14 09-21-2002, 06:38 PM

There are two different issues going on here in my opinion. The members of your chapter or I might not agree with his treatment of an American flag but I feel that it is important that he retains his right to protest by burning or otherwise harming the flag. What bothers me more about the incident is that he chose to do so with a flag that belongs not to him but to the chapter as a whole. It wasn't his own flag to treat as he desires. It was community property and thus his actions were disrespectful of fraternity. Perhaps you might consider telling him that while you disagree with his actions that you won't intervene if he repeats it with a flag he has purchased for such activities and not one that belongs to the fraternity at large.
I hope I'm being clear about what I'm trying to say, but it's been a really long week here!

DeltaBetaBaby · #15 09-21-2002, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PsychTau

Besides that, I think a few brothers should have a heart to heart with him (his big, maybe?) to find out what's really going on. Is he feeling hopeless and trapped with all of the terrorism stuff going on? Is is something else that he chose to express that way? We all lose it from time to time, and do some really stupid, regretful things (but not always in front of an audience). I don't think he should be automatically expelled without trying to figure out what is going on and helping him with his problems first. If he continues to throw fits and destroy property, well. . .maybe the counseling center should get involved.

I agree totally! I chaird our disciplinary committee, and bottom line is that people do things for a reason, and your best bet is to find out what that reason is.