Am I being oversensitive?

[RoseRed]

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[RACooper]

First off it's commendable that you concerned for your friend, secondly your not being overly sensitive. Here is my opinion on your concerns.

Of the 4 "events" you've lsited, the one I find most objectionable is your 3rd one. That one is specifically designed to cause pain, unless they are using a long match.

The 1st one concerning nicknames isn't all that bad, as long as it's in jest amongst the brothers themselves, and its understood by all that it is in jest.

The 2nd one I've done to myself after having more than a little to drink. The toppings you've listed aren't designed to cause the pledge to puke. However if the are forced to eat it, then it's wrong; if not they might aquire new tastes.

The last one I find stupid. There just reinforcing the negative stereotype that many of us try to fight. The claim that since its after initiation and therefore not hazing is BS, they are just hazing the new brothers not pledges.

[Betarulz!]

In response to #3:

If the person knows the greek alphabet, it shouldn't take very long at all. I had to say a whole lot more while my pledge educator held the match, and usually a regular cardboard match will last at least 20 seconds and usually burns out before reaching the fingers unless the person actually "works" the match to make it burn longer (Trust me on this, while practicing for this match test I went through 12 whole match books by myself). So even if they don't "work" the match someone woudl have to really be slow not to be able to say only the greek alphabet.

#4 is the most disconcerting to me, b/c we just had a house on our campus get suspended for hazing by paddles. This house supposedly "only tapped" each other, but the pictures that circulated proofed that they were more than just tapped.

The other two, while not necessarily fun, could be worse.

[Cloud9]

If the person knows the greek alphabet, it shouldn't take very long at all. I had to say a whole lot more while my pledge educator held the match, and usually a regular cardboard match will last at least 20 seconds and usually burns out before reaching the fingers unless the person actually "works" the match to make it burn longer (Trust me on this, while practicing for this match test I went through 12 whole match books by myself). So even if they don't "work" the match someone woudl have to really be slow not to be able to say only the greek alphabet

Ok, you are obviously missing the point. It doesn't matter how long it takes for the match to burn, THERE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE AN ISSUE OF A MATCH in the first place man! Come on now, that's just wrong, it's sadistic and mean, and I don't know why anyone would subject themselves to that. I personally think it's all disturbing. Also, how can people do this??? When the sorority I depledged was hazing me, they tried to tell us, "we're only like this during meetings, it's business, blahblahblah." Um...let's see, generally pledging can go from 5 or more weeks(here anyways), and rush is each semester...so guess what, if they're "only a bitch/jerk during pledging", they're pretty much a bitch/jerk most of the time, if not all. I say turn them in, I'm sorry I didn't when I had the chance, regardless of the details, and how likely a stupid task will actually cause harm, you know what, that possibility shouldn't exist, period. These guys may be your friends, but they need to be enlightened in the ways of respect and common decency not to mention good sense. Talk to them first by all means, and if they try to give you excuses or ignore you, let them know you will report them---and stick to it. I'm pretty much asking to be attacked by SOMEone I'm sure, but I can't help it, this is how I feel.

[RUgreek]

RoseRed,

First your not oversensitive, especially if there is physical harm is involved in the pledging program of a friend. I had friends that got their asses paddled, but regrettably, they knew what they were getting into and really want to be in that house. As for the list of 4 things:

#1 - when we were pledges we were called scum-bags. no one took it to heart and it was (if you can see it from my perspective) all in good fun. I'm sure it may be difficult to understand that, but no one's feelings were hurt by stupid titles or words. I hate to tell you what my pledge name was

#2 - eating disgusting things is bad, but I hardly compare that to hazing. Everyone has a choice, and everyone has the right to leave if they want. I had my limits, but if the brothers eat it, then it's a gross and silly activity. Everyone thinks pledge programs should be camp fires and deep feeling confessions with hugging, etc. I wouldn't be happy about something like this, but again, No real harm is done, just possibly an upset stomach.

#3 - This one I'm on Beta's side. The match thing is not meant to burn, but to overcome pressure. Brothers hold a match, a pledge recites the alphabet. Don't burn your brothers, an exaggerated but important lesson we learned. And trust me, nobody is sick enough to hold the match once it reaches your fingers. If they ARE making them hold the match, that's hazing and that's wrong, no argument from me.

#4 - Here's where my limits come into play. Don't ever tell me to drink or touch me in any way. Physical hazing is crossing the line in my book. Some people get their kicks from it (literally) but I don't believe it serves any logical purpose.

A lot of activities get too extreme sometimes and are complete stupid. I have a different view when it comes to what's harmful hazing or unity building activities. Some are just fun for all, others are misguided. Keep an eye on your friends and members, don't let them get hurt, but at the same time, let them make their own choices. If it's really what they want, they will do it anyway.

Hope this was helpful in some way.

- RUgreek

[PKT_BH]

A match is by no means hazing. I assure you, it goes out long before it actually burns you.

[Lil_G]

I have to disagree, what goes on behind closed doors is none of your business.

[PenguinTrax]

Hazing is defined by the FIPG (Fraternity Insurance Purchasing Group) as:

"Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks; quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution."

If the fraternity in question is insured thru FIPG (and 99% of the national fraternities are), then every item on your list is considered hazing. Period.

Those of you that are saying those items aren't objectionable, etc. are just perpetrating behaviors that bring the Greek system, and your personal standards, down.

[LeslieAGD]

While Barbara is completely right, there is often a big difference between "theory" and practice." If you think about it, almost anything could be considered hazing. I know most of the fraternities on my campus use nicknames, which can have some gross meanings behind them, but the guys think it's all in fun.

I don't think you're being overly sensitive as this is your good friend, but IMO you have to ask whether he's okay with this. If it bothers him too, then you should both speak up...but if he doesn't see it that way then maybe you should leave it up to him. I'm not saying that this is what happened in your case, but most of the time, these things can be exaggerated and maybe you didn't hear the whole story.

If this really bothers you that much, then do what you have to do, but I really encourage you to talk to your friend first.

[PKT_BH]

Originally posted by Lil_G
I have to disagree, what goes on behind closed doors is none of your business.

I concur.

[33girl]

The stuff they are allegedly doing is stupid, but even for the paddling, I'd say "immoral" is stretching it. (There is a difference between jokingly swatting each other and beating someone till he can't sit down. Think towel snapping.)

Have your brother's/boyfriend's personalities changed since they became involved with the fraternity? Are they acting mean or abusive towards you? You can make the decision to not have anything to do with their fraternity, that's your choice, but unless you have witnessed these acts with your own eyes, that is all you can do.

[Lil_G]

Originally posted by RoseRed
Not only do those events listed (and more) meet the NIFC and the legal definition of hazing but they most definitely and in every way violate that organization's national standards. I may be overreacting . . . but what they are doing is wrong by NIFC standards, their national standards, and moral standards . . . now I just have to decide if I want to be associated with that or not.

~RoseRed

OMG, i hope you're joking...you're not going to associate with a fraternity over trivial stuff like this? Well if that's the case then you can disassociate with the majority of the fraternal world because there's stuff that goes on a lot worse than this.

This is why at my school our IFSC has redefined our articles on hazing to that which is appropriate for our groups. I'm not saying that i agree or disagree with these particular actions or not, what i am saying is that the laws governing hazing need to be revamped to meet the needs of brotherhood/sisterhood.

Let's analyze a few pieces of this statement that barbara presented us with: creation of excessive fatigue - lack of sleep due to cramming or work.
physical and psychological shocks - breaking up with a significant other.
and as for the opening sentence...Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule i can think of many occurences in day to day life that fall within this: going to the gym, class presentation, writing a test, etc.

I'm not saying hey you're all wrong, i'm right. I respect everyone's opinion, but you have to realize that hazing is a commom phenomenom and that if conducted properly there are positive benefits that can be produced.

[damasa]

OMG, I loved the match test, and I had to say a lot more than just my greek alphabet, believe you me.

As for putting ketchup and stuff on a cake, bah, I remember myself and some of my pledge brothers rummaging through the kitchen after a night fuled with beer, only to make some of the most vile, nasty things we have ever eaten.

Nicknames, they are fun, and they have meaning. The meanings should stay within the fraternity and the fraternity alone, it's not the business of anyone else to know.

Paddling, paddling pledges might be hazing, but i know that actives get paddled around here all the time. I paddled my big on his 21st and my littles will be paddling me next month for my 21st. Right after the other actives raise me up to kiss the delta on our house (a ritual that has been going on since the early 70's). It's really all in fun, and to be honest, why would you be that concerned with some of these things? Enough to disassociate with the fraternity and/or its members? There are many other things that you could be worrying about, like your schoolwork, studying and etc.

[Shelacious]

Hi Rose Red,

I am not in a NPC or IFC group, so this is a comment that is unqualified.

I understand your concerns. I look at the issues as:

1. When the guys shared this information with you, they may not have had an eye toward your involvement. Sometimes, people share things with us to laugh, to vent, or to simply share their experience. They don't expect, nor desire, your opinion, nor your action on the information. Then again, they could be sharing with full knowledge that your thoughts and subsequent action are acknowledged and welcomed. I would think it would be helpful if you spoke with these guys about how YOU feel about the situation. Tell them how strongly you feel about the activities, and what you would like to do as a result. Then, ask them--do they want you to/would they mind if you got involved with the National/collegiate body in policing these activities? They may say "sure," or they may voraciously protest and resent your intended involvement. After a discussion with them, it's still your choice, but at least you will know what some of the consequences from the folks you know will be.

2. While these activities, according to what Barbara provided, are indeed considered hazing, that's the legal letter of the law. In the practical world, what is morally objectionable to you may be fun and games to another. Since it's not YOU who will participate, you should carefully consider whether to get involved in whatever capacity. I believe the letter of the law should supercede any casual traditions, but since they are THEIR traditions, not yours, just think carefully about all possible repercussions, both positive and negative before you act. I know both men and women in the NPHC world who've gone through similar traditions, and wouldn’t trade the experiences for the world. Then there are others who didn't like it very much at all.

3. These guys, even though you love them dearly, are not your children. In fact, they are not children at all. They are adult men who are fully capable of making their own decisions. While that does not mean that they will always make the best decisions for themselves and while you will have the inclination to "assist" them in better decision making, ultimately, it should still be "their" decision. There are indeed activities in which my boyfriend engages that I disagree with--however, after making my feelings known, I realize that he's going to do what he wants to do--and he faces my reaction as appropriate.

I'm not telling you what's right and wrong. You have your own convictions, and no one should try and change those. I'm merely pointing out that you should consider all factors before taking action (or no action, as the case may be)—especially in getting feedback from the men who will ultimately be the ones joining the fraternity. Best of luck, shel

[33girl]

Shelacious - that comment was anything but "unqualified!" You got right to the issues. Awesome post!!