[Andre Turner]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Religion is the great opiate of the masses. What better tool to teach folks that their servitude and low status is acceptable than by teaching (by force if necessary) that it is ordained by a higher being who will punish all of those who refuse to concede the point?

American slavery certainly wouldn't be the first time religion or even Christianity was used for such a purpose. It certainly won't be the last. In the context of history, there's nothing all that special about American slavery in that regard.



I find myself thinking that he needs to get over it. I'm not sure how Jesus' race is relevant to anything in the Bible unless you're looking for a reason to establish victimhood.

Was Christianity at one time widely interpreted to allow slavery? Of course. Is it now? Nope. That single point might be the only point on which Christianity as a whole has monolithically evolved to. So yes, historically, religion was used as a tool of oppression for American slaves, for European serfs, for Roman slaves, etc. It isn't anymore.

So outside of the context of historical discussion, how is any of this relevant today?

Typical response from an arrogant white man. Getting over slavery is not possible, when my people are still slaves. Many people believe that the enslavement of black men, women and children is a thing of the past. The world believes that America has set her black slaves free from the bondage of their white slave masters. Even some black people in America believe that they are actually free from the mastery and control of their white oppressors. In fact, most black people in America today have been psychologically duped into believing that they actually operate according to their own will. These misled perceptions cannot be further from the actual truth. We are still indeed, in thought, and in fact, still a slave.

Does the slave master still have to whip, chain, and beat us? No. The slave master does not have to chain us down or beat us anymore, because we (as black people) are not doing anything, and we (as black people) are not going anywhere. We have freedom in name, but not in definition.

Your arrogant typical response to what I said doesn't surprise me. It also tells me that you do not even know what the word "slave" means. The word "slave" means "one who is dominated by some outside influence and having no personal rights or freedom."

The questions I have for my people are these: Are we dominated by some outside influence other than our own influence? Do we have our personal rights and our true freedom? Do we really know and understand what freedom actually is? Have we ever truly experienced true freedom? Do we even remember what true freedom was all about? What do we know other than what white people have told us? Nothing. What do we know other than what black folks have told us that they heard from other white folks? Nothing.

Yes, the physical slavery is "somewhat" over, but what about the biological slavery? What about the economical slavery? What about the sociological slavery? What about the spiritual slavery? What about the psychological slavery?

The physical chains were just one aspect amidst the many horrors of slavery. The chains are off our hands, but we are not producing anything. The chains are off our feet, but we are not going anywhere. This is because those physical chains were the least of our worries. We still have the biggest chain of all wrapped around our minds, hearts, and souls. Our minds are still locked-down, and it is our mind that controls our hands and our feet. Once you have the mind, the body will follow, which is what 4 centuries of bondage and oppression has done. Your arrogance, and ignorance explains why you would just tell somebody to "get over" 4 centuries of bondage, control, abuse, murder, rape, and oppression from your people. What your people have done, still very much so effects black people right now. So it relevant today.

Originally Posted by dekeguy

No, I am not pulling any race card, sir.
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Peter: Gee, you could have fooled me! Your whole argument is about playing the race card and attacking Christianity as a racist tool for oppression. You ignore the historical truth that Christians have suffered persecution for many many centuries in defense of the rights and dignity of all humankind.
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Andre: If I was, what would be wrong with me pulling the race card? Your people have been pulling the race card for the past four centuries and still continue to pull the race card that seems to always be in your favor.
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Peter: My people? Who are they, pray tell, who have been playing the race card for four centuries? I am an American, incidentally of mostly French origin and liniage. I am a Roman Catholic both by accident of birth and by considered and informed choice. The card I play is my obligation to follow the two great commandments given by Jesus. That card has been around for about two thousand years.
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Andre: Now, you tell me, how many people with blonde hair and blue eyes were living in the Middle East during the time of Jesus? It is impossible for there to have ever been a blonde hair, blue eyed Jesus... something that the slave master instilled in the minds of black people.
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Peter: I suppose you missed my comment about the historical Jesus being swarthy complected, dark curley haired semite? No way was He a blond, blue eyed, scandinavian.
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Andre: My people were also directly and indirectly taught (by the slave master) to hate their natural black selves. "Black is bad". Wear white to weddings, and black to funerals. Devil's food cake is black and angel's food cake is white. If I know something bad about you, I could "blackmail" you. You can tell a little "white lie", but you better not tell a big bold "black lie". Do you see the psychology in this? My people were conditioned (by the slave master) to hate everything about themselves that was natural and black. We hate our black beauty because we were taught to define our own beauty according to these white, anglo, caucasoidal, European, westernized, beauty standards. As an example: a white, blonde hair, blue eyed Jesus. This means that anything less than blue eyes and blonde hair is considered less than beautiful. The further you get away from blonde hair and blue eyes, the uglier you get. This is what we were taught. This means that if you got black eyes, black, tight, nappy hair and dark black skin, you are the ugliest thing on the planet. What is sad is the slave master was successful in the brainwashing of black people and this still continues to this very day. As an example: Chris Rock’s "Good Hair" movie. The question I have to my people is why do we want to look like the slave master?...the murderous, cold-blooded, rapist "mutha-fucka". I said rapist "mutha-fucka" for a reason, not just to use foul language. I am speaking the truth. Let me define what a "mutha-fucka" is. A "mutha-fucka" is an individual who is the "fucka of muthas". The white man is a historical "fucka of muthas" around the world. A historical rapist. He was the "fucka" of our "fore-muthas". This is why we come in so many different shades of black now. I find it to be sad that we want to look like, and worship (the image of a white Jesus), the same image type of people who hung us from trees. I'm not arguing your religious beliefs. What I am saying is we have been taught that Jesus is white, with blue eyes, and blonde hair, when that is impossible.
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Peter: Your argument seems obsessed with race. I was never taught to worship a vanilla Jesus. I was taught that Jesus was the Son of God who came to deliver ALL humankind and offer us ALL the gift of salvation.
So, following your argument, I suppose because I have dark hair and dark eyes I am ugly? I never thought I was great looking but I never thought I was ugly either. I would suggest that we both know and appreciate many women of great beauty who just happen to be Black, White, Asian, or any of the many variations in the range of humankind. Same goes for our male side of the human race.
I never worshiped a blond blue eyed Jesus because even when I was a little kid it seemed obvious that He looked more like an Egyptian than a Guy from Norway. In any event it didn't seem to matter, either He was who I believed He was or there was no point to it. What he looked like was an irrelevance when measured against Who He is.
I have no sympathy for oppressive slave masters who I figure had a lot of explaining to do when they faced Jesus, but I have great admiration for the countless thousands who proclaimed their belief in Christ at the cost of their lives over all of the many centuries that Christians have been persecuted for the faith.
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Andre: I am not using any race card, sir, I am only speaking the truth. I have not lied about anything here.
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I did not suggest that you lied, only that your argument seems based on unsupported and inflammatory statements. I suggested that you might want to approach the question of 21st Century Christianity in light of two thousand years of carefully preserved multi-source historical Christianity.
You might remember that some of the greatest fathers of the church were not Northern European but Asian and African. The greatest philosopher of the early church was Saint Augustine of Hippo, African bishop of an African diocese.

I didn't say anything about the Bible not being true based on its history. What I said was that there is truth in the Bible and the teachings of Jesus. But, the true teachings of Jesus is not what the slave master taught us. There is truth in the Bible if you can break through all of the symbolism. The teachings of Jesus are very valuable, but that is not what the white man taught us. I said earlier that this is not the teaching that the slave master has given the preacher to preach.

No, I am not obsessed with race. Your people seem to be the only people obsessed with race,to the point where it looks to be a sickness to me. What I am doing here is telling the truth. The first thing a white man wants to say is that it isn't his fault. No it is not your fault, but are you reaping the benefits of white America, sir? Yes, you are. Since you are French why don't you refer to yourself as a European American? Most of your people are of European decent. Since this is true, why do your people refer to every other race of people that are not white, as African American, Asian American, etc. and even refer to Americans themselves as Native American, but yet refer to yourselves as white, or Caucasian?

No, what you do not understand is that we have been taught Christianity by the slave master. Is King James a Saint? Why does he have the authority to add his two cents to the Bible? This is what we were taught. We were taught this and we accepted this with no questions asked. We have accepted the sun-up to sun-down hard slave labor, with no questions asked. We have accepted our own families being broken-up and sold away with no questions asked, the very reason why black families are still to this very day, broken-up. We have accepted the brutal raping of our mothers and our sisters, with no questions asked. We have accepted the beating, dismembering, hanging, lynching, of our brothers and our fathers with no questions asked. Yes, and from the same man who has given us all this pure hell, we accepted "his teachings" of Christianity with no questions asked. Yes, this is the absolute truth, sir!

So you and I both know that we did not receive the "true" word of the "true" God from your people. Think about it. Why would a white man, who spends more than half of his time trying to kill us and our minds (which he has succeeded in doing), turn around to spend the other half of his time trying to bring our minds back to life? That wouldn't make any sense, at all. How could the same man, who has taken on the mind, heart, and will of a devil, turn around and show us the straight and narrow path to God? Think about that real good. I would be a fool to believe anything a devil says to me about God, based on "his teachings".