[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Cloud9
RU Greek, you seem pretty intelligent based on your writing. But I wonder, and this is to all those who have misgivings with Affirmative Action, I wonder how much of that opinion is objective, and how much is just because you happened to be born as white people. For example, Palestinians will go all day talking about the injustices of the Israelis, and vice versa, while really those individuals would probably have the opposite opinion if by chance they were born into the "other side."Now while this discussion is very interesting and thought provoking, I would be much more eager to hear from people who have been born in one situation but have the opinion of the other. Are there any minority classified people who dislike AA? I have seen a few white posters who are for it, and I can be included in that group.

Since you asked . . . I am a white male, and I am for the concept of AA - however, much like lovelyivy, I don't think the implementation is nearly as beautiful as the concept. Something is, most likely, better than nothing, though - and it's way better than something negative.

Originally posted by Cloud9
Honestly, it's ridiculous for white people to sit back and say, "ohh, she/he is stealing a more worthy person's spot just because they're a minority." Really, think how insulting that is. It makes the assumption that finding a worthy candidate for higher education among qualified recipients of AA is not equal to those of the majority.

Very true, esp about the 'insult' portion - but it is equally inappropriate to assume that there exist no instances of the system failing, and having a person of minority status who is less qualified than a comparable white male get a job, or that these don't 'matter', as it is to assume that this is the situation all the time.

It is a logical fallacy to assume that either are the majority of cases - I'd say the majority most likely happen as planned. Either way, I can see how the concept can be extremely insulting to those who are AA-eligible - the point isn't to put incompetent people into jobs. It's to make sure that employers look toward the equally-competent minorities, and try to ensure they don't get passed up just due to race.

Originally posted by Cloud9
I don't know about you people, but all of the black people on my NYU campus are exremely intelligent, and many of them are much smarter than the white kids who floated in on daddy's money.

Eh . . . I won't make assumptions one way or another - I know that most of the college kids I know, PERIOD, are relatively intelligent, and the black kids (or hispanic, or asian, or whatever) are certainly no exception. Again, there are (most likely) kids of all races that float in on daddy's money - it's unfortunate, and more of these are probably white, but that doesn't make it any better when it happens.

Either way - the vast majority of kids I know at school BELONG there. That would preclude, say, dumbass black kids getting free rides b/c they're black (not that that's been explicitly claimed ) . . . but that's purely anecdotal, so take that for what you will.

Originally posted by Cloud9
I would say it's difficult if not impossible for these fears of underqualified minorities taking the spots of more qualified whites actually occuring. And believe me, if it were to happen, nine times out of ten an extra spot would be created for that ONE random instance.

Again, I find it best not to make assumptions either way - if we have no statistical support, I don't know that this type of commentary really leads anywhere. I do think, however, that the thought that AA puts underqualified minorities in the place of more-qualified whites sounds a lot like hysteria, and not a lot like something that can be backed up with more than "well, I know this guy..." . . . but it's hard to prove either way, so people will believe what they want to believe I suppose.

Originally posted by Cloud9
Maybe there is a better solution, but until minorities are given better opportunities in PRIMARY education, the ground must be leveled somehow in Secondary education.

I'd say that both are equally necessary, and most likely are outcroppings of the same root problem - it's just that secondary-education reform is (slightly) easier to pass as legislation, and so that has happened first. The fact that an education gap still exists in America today makes us look more like a 3rd-world nation than the world superpower we claim to be, at least to my mind. Also, I think that the education gap is by and large a by-product of the distribution of wealth in the US - which also is partly a product of education (wealth via jobs via education) . . . talk about a viscious circle. This sort of "poor get poorer" mentality is very hard to counteract.

Originally posted by Cloud9
Also, this whole thing about immigrants having it tough doesn't really compute. I've known many many european immigrant families, and their kids have gone to places like Johns Hopkins, Harvard, MIT, and other such institutions WITH scholarships.

Ugh, Cloud9, I loved ya until this comment. This sounds, to me, very similar to "BUT THIS ONE HISPANIC GUY GOT A SCHOLARSHIP JUST BECAUSE HE'S HISPANIC!!!" Observation is key in science, but here doesn't hold much weight - immigrants may very well have it tough in general, but not in the few instances you've seen. Again, I don't know the answer, but the logic-class portion of my brain doesn't really like the way this is put - it applies a statistically-insignificant sample to the whole population, much like many of the 'reverse-racism' issues dealt with earlier in the thread.

Originally posted by Cloud9
Also you must realize, even IF one generation of immigrants has a rough time, the next one is usually more established. But generation after generation black people still have it tough in this country. Why? Because we are still not doing enough, and whites still have the advantages.

(note - coloring/italicizing is mine)

The conclusion here is probably the lesson that those of us who don't have minority status in this country should take away from here - not as a "thank God I'm white" thing, but as a "well that's how it is now, how can we change it?" type deal.

But in the words of my favorite social commentator - that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.