[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by dekeguy

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Aww, I thought you would pick up on that somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment. No one really believes it is sweet and proper to die for your country, and no one wants to go home in a rubber bag. That was more of a sardonic crack than a motivational rallying cry. [dekeguy]
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I took it with tongue in cheek, and yet all I see in it is tragedy.

Please tell me you don't really believe that soldiers serve and go in harm's way for ribbons and medals. Of course people really just want to support their families and make a life for themselves and those they care about.
I suspect we are discussing related but fundamentally different aspects of this thread. I was responding to the 'cannon fodder' anti-JROTC position and you, I think, are responding to the opportunities (or lack thereof) open to those you are helping. I would, however, suggest that anyone who has a 'record' but is trying to be a solid citizen could get help from military recruiters who are under pressure to find enlistees. If the guy has a really terrible record and no mitigating circumstances then he would be unsuitable but if he is a guy who made a mistake, even a big one, but is now clean and squared away there are avenues available to him. [dekeguy]

I'd suspect very few are in it for the glory/ribbons/medals etc and hopefully most of those get shaped up before they get shipped out.
My guys don't have 'records' they have records. Felonys, typically drug or violent. See the second post though for some insight from them. I'm only aware of one time when someone came in and wanted to be in the military so bad that they had a recruiter come to our office and they worked things out with him. I don't know what his offense was.

However, I can understand how some people would see our soldiers as if they're being treated like cannon-fodder, particularly if the people who enlist are doing so for the money/schooling and it being the only way to support their families. It feels less 'volunteer' at some point when those pressures exist. Not that there's a solution per se. (Though sometimes Heinlein sounds right after all...)

Agreed, and I hope my comments could be read by anyone who had little or no knowledge of the military and be able to easily follow what I was saying. [dekeguy]

They were, they just omitted the other side of things.
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Goes to my argument that training, maturity, and savvy are crucial in all soldiers and most crucially important in all leaders.

Trained, mature and savvy soldiers commit suicide or consider it.

Suicide suggests to me that the soldier was ill prepared for the stress of war and poorly led by under-prepared officers and NCOs.

Not that preparation can't help, but I don't think that's true. Would you say suicidal teens are the fault of parents and teachers? Intervention can help, but mental illness is mental illness.

If one of my troopers took his own life I would consider that I had failed to train him, lead him, socialize him into the brotherhood of soldiers where we stand together and there is no time limit for these bonds to exist.

Many people would have similar feelings of blame and responsibility, they don't belong there.

I'll have to tell you about calls my Dad gets from some of his troopers who served with him before I was even born. (Which reminds me, your PM mail box is full).

Ah bother thanks, I'd cleared it and then it filled up without me realizing because I never empty the damned thing.



A recent study showed half of veterans in college have suicidal thoughts, a third have severe anxiety and a quarter are depressed. Symptoms were found as clinically significant (that is they were severe and diagnosable) and 45% showed clinical signs of PTSD. We're just not doing enough to help them and brushing it off as "It's Life, Deal with it" does a serious disservice to those service members. [Drolefille]
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Mostly agree, but again, my limited experience suggests that a coheasive well led outfit provides a continuing support system for those who face death and far worse on a regular basis. All soldiers accept the fact the PTSD is real and all of us will experience it to some degree.

Agreed, for a definition of PTSD/PTSS.

We do however consider that the real brotherhood in a combat unit makes suicide an act viewed as a sense of breaking caste.

And do you see how this view might discourage your brothers from speaking up and seeking help? Seeing suicide as dishonorable doesn't prevent suicide, it means increased shame for suicidal thoughts and for the survivors.