View Single Post
  #9  
Old 07-28-2011, 02:24 PM
AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Santa Monica/Beverly Hills
Posts: 8,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
Aww. c'mon. You don't have to be a good Catholic to have this kind of fun with her.

Ditto.

It can be, depending on what one wants to replace it with.

There is a fundamental issue that needs to be addressed: atheism and religion are not antonyms. One can be atheistic (or nontheistic) and religious. Traditional, classical Buddhism is nontheistic. There are atheistic (or nontheistic) Jews, atheistic/nontheistic Toaists, certainly atheistic/nontheistic Unitarian-Universalists and atheistic/nontheistic many-other-relgions.

Dictionary.com defines "religion" as "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." The Wiki defines it as "a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values." Frederick Streng (a founder of the Society of Asian and Comparative Philosophy) defined it simply as "a means of ultimate transformation." The line between philosophy and religion isn't always a clear one.

While the belief in a Supreme Being (or Supreme Beings) is certainly part of many if not most religious systems, especially in the West, it's not a necessary part by any means. Again, look at Buddhism, Taoism or, depending on the definition of "religion" used, Confucianism. So I think it is entirely reasonable and accurate to say that while some atheists are opposed to religion and seek to have religion of any kind suppressed (antireligious), and while some atheists simply live with an absence of religion (irreligious), other atheists seek to replace theistic religion with atheistic/nontheistic religion.

Again, not necessarily. Buddhism doesn't really fit into the description of the worship of some thing or ideal.

All that said, I think an argument can be made that folks like Dawkins and Hitchens make a religion out of science or out of human reason.

And in case I'm not clear, I don't mean this as disparaging of atheists at all. That's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that the typical discussion of "atheism vs. religion" is limited by a very Western (and American) understanding of what religion is. Per the Dalai Lama:
I'm Buddhist, I'm a Buddhist practitioner. So actually I think that according to nontheistic Buddhist belief, things are due to causes and conditions. No creator. So I have faith in our actions, not prayer. Action is important. Action is karma. Karma means action. That's an ancient Indian thought. In nontheistic religions, including Buddhism, the emphasis is on our actions rather than god or Buddha. So some people say that Buddhism is a kind of atheism. Some scholars say that Buddhism is not a religion — it's a science of the mind. . . .

I even consider Buddha and some of his important followers like Nagarjuna (one of Buddha's leading disciples) to be scientists. Their main method is analytical. Analyze, analyze — not emphasis on faith. And these masters are not magicians.
(And yes, I have known of a few Greeks who consider their ritual their religion. I remember an essay in an old edition of Baird's where it was discussed in those very terms.)
I would not consider Buddhism a religion as classically considered either, but unlike atheism, there are definitely ideals and thoughts in Buddhism that adherents try to live by. I'm very good friends with a practicing Buddhist. There is no worshipping, but there is definitely a following of the Buddha and his teachings.

As for Greeks having their rituals as their religion, that is pretty rare and bizarre as to border on unheard of. To then use that reference from Baird's to then espouse that Greek organizations are religions is ridiculous. Maybe you are being the devil's advocate, but as previously stated on other threads, he doesn't need one. Are there atheists who take it too far? Sure. I'd say they are more political than religious, however. Is republicanism or democratic membership a religion? Some people take it way too seriously, but it's not a religion.

As for
Quote:
All that said, I think an argument can be made that folks like Dawkins and Hitchens make a religion out of science or out of human reason.
I don't think this is anymore true than any scientist. People are passionate about their work. A evolutionary scientist who truly believes in evolution is making a religion out of science just because they don't believe the religious version of the beginning of the world? Or is it because Dawkins and Hitchens dare to write about it?
__________________

AOII

One Motto, One Badge, One Bond and Singleness of Heart!




Reply With Quote