[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Vito - They moved the books! I'll write this week and find out if they have any left and if so I'll get you one. Once I have it in my possession we'll talk shipping, etc.

RE: Guilt. The nice thing about any Catholic guilt is there is reconciliation - so there should be no lingering guilt,unless you are unrepentant and unwilling to amend your life, in which case you must not think whatever you are doing is wrong, so why feel guilty? Guilt should lead you to think about whatever is making you feel that way - then you deal with it, one way or the other. As I see people with no qualms about some of the most self-centered behavior imaginable I can't help but wish they had some pangs of guilt.

Thing is, for example, feeling guilty about sex, or about my relationship resulted in me acting to not feel guilty - by leaving the institution that was telling me I should feel guilty. At this time it's also led to me lying to my parents, which is something else to feel guilty about, but the knowledge of their beliefs and our current proximity means that I'm going to lie and feel guilty for that rather than again be pressured to feel guilty for something that is not wrong.

Your perspective works in an ideal world, and it's one that I hope to eventually live up to, but it isn't necessarily realistic. I know that I'm more sensitive than most to disappointing people I care about, but I don't believe I'm at such an extreme that there isn't a large number of people who are on a similar spectrum.

I don't want people to be motivated by guilt, not even self-centered people. I'd rather they learn to be motivated by more other-centered causes. Additionally I think it's silly to assume that we know whether people feel guilt or not.

ETA: Something clicked for me, and we do a similar exercise with our clients about worries, if you're doing everything you can about it then why worry? If you're not doing everything you can, and don't intend to, then why worry about it? All that said, people still worry.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Actually, "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" is the translation of the English Language Liturgical Consultation (ELLC), an ecumenical group that works toward common translations of texts. The ELLC version appears along with traditional versions in Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist and other liturgies. But because the Lord's Prayer is one of those things people learn early on, it is one of the last things where people willingly accept a new translation.

But "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" is very clearly the meaning of the original Greek.

Aye, I get that. I'm curious if anyone does raise those objections. But I know what you mean about people not accepting new translation/etc. I already couldn't get down with the new gestures in Mass, but the new language will probably help me gain distance, as I've said.

Yep, and we were certainly taught what debt meant in this context. In fact, I understood debt in this context before I understood what it meant in financial terms.

lol! Probably the same with trespass for me, although I don't recall.