[ASTalumna06]

Sorry, I'm back. Just one more point (as I'm not going to further argue what I already have, because it obviously won't make a difference). This was your original post. Take note of the bolded parts.

Originally Posted by msl2008

So since there are many news articles about hazing and everyone saying how hazing is wrong yada yada, I'm curious as to what anti-hazing people would do for a new member education program that would differentiate the greek system from another student organization besides the fact that you guys live together or hangout together and bs like that.

Now I am against certain parts of hazing ie doing anything blatantly stupid like binge drinking or paddling or hitting pledges. However, I do not see a problem with doing physical exercises ie situps/pushups/running etc or screaming/yelling at a pledge. I think that when under emotional and psychological stress, people can go above and beyond what they would under normal circumstances and thus can learn a great deal about themselves. If the pledge can't handle this type of thing, he/she is always free to drop/quit/leave whenever they choose. Greeks are not gangs. We do not beat you if you want to leave.

And while reading some anti-hazing sites, I can't help but wonder why people are so proud that they were showered with gifts throughout their pledgeship. Doesn't that basically mean that you didn't do anything and yet I guess you were so rich or famous or b/c of who your parents are the fraternity/sorority decided to treat you like royalty? Isn't that the problem with Americans these days? Everyone feels like they're entitled to stuff and no one wants to put in the good old fashioned hard work anymore?

Now obviously I think that when people die there is an obvious problem. However, out of the hundreds of news articles I've read and anti-hazing sites I've visited, I do not recall any that had someone dying b/c he/she was doing pushups/situps/running etc. They were all either drinking or being beaten to death.

I am not really here to argue with anyone. However, I would like to know some constructive thoughts as to why people believe hazing is wrong. And remember, I am NOT including binge drinking/paddling etc in my argument b/c I also agree those should not be in any pledge program.

I look forward to an interesting discussion and to all your inputs.

You wanted to know:
a.) What non-hazing groups do for new member programs
b.) What the problem is with having pledges perform physical tasks, being yelled at, etc.
c.) Some thoughts as to why people think hazing is wrong.

So when people gave you opinions addressing these questions, somewhere along the line you turned your question into this:

Originally Posted by msl2008

i thought it was pretty obvious that i wanted ideas b/c i want to reform pledging a little bit. try and make it less hazing as much as possible while still making it challenging enough so it's still exclusive.

Originally Posted by msl2008

i'm not saying org don't get caught. but with all the different chapters and stuff out there, i'd say probably 1/1000 get caught. and then remember that they got all the hotshot attorneys and rich alumni and insurance who make sure it's nothin more than a slap on the wrist. last couple stories i read where people died people got maybe $10k fine and a year jail time and a year probation? for having someone die i don't consider that too bad.

and serving popcorn at sporting events is often done by organizations for fundraising. my whole point is that all you're doing is spending time doing something but most of that time you're not even really interacting with your organization's members cuz you're busy serving the community or fundraising.

First of all, you say your organization has a slim chance of getting caught. Is that because you do all of your secret stuff in the basement of the house? Oh, sorry.. did I ruin everything? All it takes is for one pledge to be uncomfortable enough to call the school or your national organization and you'd be screwed.

But hey, if you don't mind paying $10,000 and serving a year in jail, keep it up.

And if you're not bonding during fundraisers and philanthropies, then clearly pledging/hazing did NOTHING for the closeness between you and your brothers. Unless you're hazed all throughout college, in which case, you MIGHT have an argument for your chapter being closer than others (but probably not).