[Alias23]

"I don't take a discrimination claim at face value. I need proof of wrongdoing before I jeopardize the reputation of an organization -- something concrete that shows Twilley wasn't given a bid merely because of her race.

Were the girls rude to her? Twilley says no.

Did they ignore her at the rush parties, make her feel ill at ease while she was there, or do anything else to show that she was being set apart from the rest of the rushees? Twilley, again, says no.

If any of those things had happened, then I would be the first to say, "yes, race may have played a part." " -- dzrose

Now we're getting somewhere. My reference to you not answering my question dealt with your unwillingness to be specific. Now you've given somewhat specific examples of things that would cause you to consider that race MAY have played a factor in Twilley's denial of a bid (I interpret your response as saying that it would AT LEAST take the events you mentioned to consider that "race MAY have played a part" and to then investigate).

The examples you have given do not surprise me, because they are some of the more obvious types of racist behavior (actually it's still hard to prove unless you have a witness because it's her word against theirs -- now what?). But what you must understand is that, these days, such acts are more rare because racists realize that they have to be more shrewd to get away with their discrimination. People who really are interested in keeping Blacks or another minority out of a group often don't do things as obvious as treat them rudely, ignore them, or make them feel uneasy because they know these things are cause for suspicion. Instead, those who engage in this type of behavior will give no indication whatsoever of their racist views or motives, and simply deny the person a membership/job/etc. because they don't want them there. These are the cases that African-Americans are dealing with most frequently -- the ones with no apparent "evidence." This is why we have to dig deeper and look at patterns of conduct and other things that give us an overall picture of whether or not someone is being discriminated against. This is when we apply the end-result rule to determine if the end-result is discriminatory rather than looking for only intent, because intent is often hard to prove given that racists are much smarter than they used to be. If we waited on something as obvious as the examples you gave to happen before we said, "yes, race MAY have played a part" as you stated, then most valid cases of racism would go uninvestigated.

"However, the only "evidence" that we have is Twilley's word that she "thinks" she was discriminated against. I'm not calling her a liar, I just feel that we should hear more of the story - from both sides - instead of taking her claim at face value.

Once again, I'm not saying that race WASN'T the reason for the cut. I'm just saying that people shouldn't automatically jump to that conclusion simply because one person says it is. That's all." -- dzrose

So you do think it is worth investigating (because earlier you inferred that there wasn't enough "evidence" to say "yes, race MAY have played a factor" and, thus, investigate)? If so, I'm glad you feel that way, but I thought before that you said it was your opinion that Twilley's denial of a bid was not based on race:

" The reason I made my comment (and I think Killarney made hers, although I won't speak for her on this), is because I feel that the whole Twilley incident was blown so far out of proportion. In talking to some people who have met Twilley, it became apparent that she quite possibly had an "agenda" to rushing - that she wanted to make some kind of statement as to how AA's are "treated" during NPC Rush at a Southern school. Through all of this, she made quite a name for herself, and in every article I've read, that Cherokee has been mentioned -- presumably to suggest that because she has a nice car, she should have been automatically granted entrance to an NPC sorority. " -- dzrose

That statement sounds very judgemental and made me believe that you were jumping to conclusions yourself before we had enough information.

"I'm all for investigating and reaching conclusions. As long as people remember that the conclusion part should come AFTER the investigation part. My point is that many people jump to conclusions and automatically believe that a racism claim is fact before checking to make absolutely sure that it is. The NPC sororities at Alabama should be "innocent until proven guilty", but some people believe them guilty and feel that they should prove their innocence. Doesn't seem very fair to me. " -- dzrose

I agree that it's unfair for people to jump to conclusions. I think you have the impression that I am one of those people, but in fact I have maintained throughout my posts that I just felt Twilley's experience should be investigated. You stated earlier that you think Twilley was wrong to "raise such a ruckus about it." I'm sorry if it bothers you when things like this hit the media, but please try and understand that it takes that type of action to draw enough attention to make sure that situations like this are investigated THOUROGHLY. Unfortunately, we can't stop people from jumping to conclusions one way or the other -- therein lies the problem. This is particularly true on an issue like racism, which touches people in an emotional way.

"Please don't pick apart my statements to find one quote that suits you. My original words stated that there are ALREADY minority members in NPC houses at Alabama, which disproves the theory that the NPC groups are against the idea of non-white members. To me, that shows that the girls are interested in choosing rushees who will be assets to their organizations, regardless of what the color of their skin may be. Also, if I were a minority rushee who didn't receive a bid, I would have a hard time justifying a discrimination claim knowing that I'd met sorority members who were also "minorities" during the rush parties." -- dzrose

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm picking you apart, but I just like to respond to specific statements you've made to make sure I counter what you're saying, and so you can see how I'm interpreting what you're telling me. As far as already having minority members, first of all I have no proof of that other than what you're telling me, and secondly even if they did have minority members, that doesn't mean Twilley wasn't discriminated against. That's just like a White person who is accused of engaging in racist statements or conduct defending himself by saying "One of my friends is Black." If there are minority members at Alabama, that's something to consider, but we must look at the whole picture, which is why we must INVESTIGATE situations like this. Yes, we do have as you said, a difficult time proving those cases, but it has been done.

Thank you for answering my question. Now that you have, I think we will be able to understand each other better. I like working to understand people I disagree with rather than just dropping the subject because I feel both parties learn from it. I think the problem is we're miscommunicating a lot, though we may disagree a little. I appreciate your honesty, and anxiously await your reply to my comments.