Quote:
Originally Posted by dekeguy
Drolfille,
Please don't see this as trying to pick a fight. I am not, I am just trying to work this out in my own mind as well. It is part of that "think it through to its conclusion" bit I mentioned earlier.
As you are a Jesuit educated Catholic you know that Doctrine must be promulgated ex cathedra by the Pontif speaking as head of the magisterium. Since no such DOCTRINAL pronouncement exists I believe that this issue is not doctrinal but administrative. It seems to be a disciplinary matter not unlike the old practices of not eating meat on Friday or the requirement to fulfil one's Easter Duties. Hearsay, which by the way follows different legal interpretations in the UK vice the US, is not at issue here in that the advice was directly received from the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, RC Primate of England, and the senior eccleastical authority in that Country. His advice was presumably based on his knowledge, but was not received as hearsay as it was guidance given directly under his authority which is absolute within his See and Metropolitan Province and remains so unless he would be removed by the Pontif, which he was not. Near as I can figure out the Cardinal gave guidance based on his personal knowledge and/or he exercised his authority to dispence the faithful from any NON-DOCTRINAL requirement.
Your thoughts would honestly be appreciated.
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From my understanding although the Pope speaking ex cathedra defines doctrine, not all doctrine is defined by ex cathedra. It is used very rarely.
From
Newadvent.org
The action of the Church is summed up in the papal pronouncements against Freemasonry since 1738, the most important of which are:
Clement XII, Constitution "In Eminenti", 28 April, 1738;
Benedict XIV, "Providas", 18 May, 1751;
Pius VII, "Ecclesiam", 13 September, 1821;
Leo XII, "Quo graviora", 13 March, 1825;
Pius VIII, Encyclical "Traditi", 21 May, 1829;
Gregory XVI, "Mirari", 15 August, 1832;
Pius IX, Encyclical "Qui pluribus", 9 November, 1846;
Pius IX, Allocution "Quibus quantisque malis", 20 April, 1849;
Pius IX, Encyclical "Quanta cura", 8 December, 1864;
Pius IX, Allocution "Multiplices inter", 25 September, 1865;
Pius IX, Constitution "Apostolicę Sedis", 12 October, 1869;
Pius IX, Encyclical "Etsi multa", 21 November, 1873;
Leo XIII, Encyclical "Humanum genus", 20 April, 1884;
Leo XIII, "Pręclara", 20 June, 1894;
Leo XIII, "Annum ingressi", 18 March, 1902 (against Italian Freemasonry);
Leo XIII, Encyclical "Etsķ nos", 15 February, 1882;
Leo XIII, "Ab Apostolici", 15 October, 1890.
These pontifical utterances from first to last are in complete accord, the latter reiterating the earlier with such developments as were called for by the growth of Freemasonry and other secret societies.
Clearly there have been more recent Church discussions on it, but this was the list of Papal encyclicals, allocutions and letters found in the Catholic Encyclopedia. This masonic site lists others
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-mason...cyclicals.html
The hearsay I'm talking about is supposed remarks by JPII which contradict everything else the Church has said on the matter. I can find nothing connecting JPII to any such remarks and would be interested in seeing them
Please see also this site, the retraction is the important part where the Judicial Vicar acknowledges his error, dated 2002 (again no mention of JPII)
http://www.freemason.org/cfo/march_a...1/catholic.htm
See
What is the Church's position on Freemasonry? It refers to the most recent pronouncement as the 1983 one by then Cardinal Ratzinger.