[Kevin]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I agree with you in part. But I think it will be a while before traditional southern chapters completely move away from "hazing"(never, I hope).

It's happening though -- or at least, it's being changed into something we might not be afraid to invite a High Council member to watch. Our Oklahoma State chapter, for example has made some pretty huge changes in the last few years. They're certainly top tier on that campus (and they'd probably be top tier anywhere else). I'm not sure to what extent they've changed, but they really have. Their alums rewarded them with 2.5 million in money for rennovations, so everything's working out nicely.

Once again, when I say hazing, I mean making it a challenge for pledges to become members. This is not the CNN beating and force-drinking hazing.

This is part of the problem with our aversion to hazing. We lump all of these activities together. While I may disagree with you in terms of the utility of things like lineups, and pledge challenges, I think we'd both agree that those types of things have no business being lumped together with what we see on CNN as you say. I think we can all agree that type of activity simply should not happen, and I think we'd all agree that whoever does participate in activities like that should be shut down.

Sigma Nu at Auburn is a very good chapter, and I have heard from people (and I've seen this as well), that legacies may be hurting them. Don't get me wrong, legacies are most often a plus, but when you have tons of them coming through, you're bound to get some ones you'd rather not have.

Actually, I think we've changed up our legacy policy. Those guys were right. I understand why the legacy system is in place, but I really think it should be up to the chapter as to whether or not to implement it. Some chapters need help getting good guys, others need help keeping bad guys out. National policy's number one objective should be to stay out of the way of local chapters unless what they're doing is directly beneficial to the local chapters.

-- and if we want to continue that discussion, we can do it in Chapter Operations

Do I think hazing creates good chapters? No. Do I think smart and purposeful hazing creates a quality and strong brotherhood? Yes. I do still think there is a correlation between strict anti-hazing chapters and being bottom tier, at least here in the south.

Correlation does not equal causation though. Let's look at why most of those chapters are strict anti-hazing in the first place.

First, we can assume either one of two things -- both of which are bad in the South:

1) It's a new chapter; or
2) The chapter has been in trouble, is a recolonization, is on probation from their national, etc.

If we can agree that these types of chapters with a few exceptions are principally one of the above two types, I think we can see why they're at a disadvantage in the first place.

The new chapter doesn't have the advantage of tradition. In the South, I think this is a huge disadvantage. Guys are looking for established houses with active alumni networks. Given the choice between houses that have this and houses that don't, I think that it's obvious what type of group most would choose to belong to.

If the chapter has been in trouble, is a recolonization, etc. this is self-explanatory. Of course, it's not always the case. I don't have much insight, but our Arkansas chapter just recolonized. Their alums built them a multi-million dollar house with an excellent location while they were still a colony. I imagine that they're also a strong anti-hazing chapter since these guys probably have no exposure to anything but what our HQ has given them in terms of national programming, but I understand there are exceptions to every rule. It'll be interesting to see if we can repeat this feat in the South as we're recolonizing at Vandy this year.