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This is why I'm strongly opposed to torture in extracting information

Not only is this method illegal under international law and immoral, but it is also unreliable. I know that if I'm tortured, you damn right I'll say anything for them to stop. This is the case of Maher Arar. The action of both Syria and US is shameful to the nth degree.

Quote:

Canadian tells of deportation by U.S., then torture in Syria
DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE PRESS SERVICES

Posted on Thursday, November 6, 2003

TORONTO — A Canadian citizen detained as a terrorism suspect last year at New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport said Tuesday that he was secretly deported to Syria and endured 10 months of torture in a prison there.

Maher Arar, 33, released last month, said at a news conference in Ottawa that he pleaded with U.S. authorities to let him continue to Canada, where he has lived for 15 years and has a family. Instead, he was flown under U.S. guard to Jordan and handed over to Syria, where he was born. Arar denied any connection to terrorism and said he would fight to clear his name.

Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien blamed the United States on Wednesday for Arar’s deportation. "It is unacceptable and deplorable what happened to this gentleman," Chretien said Wednesday. "This gentleman was in New York, and he was deported to Syria by the American government. The Canadian government had nothing to do with it. When we heard about it, we protested."

U.S. officials said Tuesday that Arar was deported because his name had been put on a terrorist watch list after information from "multiple international intelligence agencies" linked him to terrorist groups.

Last month, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge told the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. that the decision to deport Arar was based on information from foreign intelligence. "I think we need to dispel the notion that this was an arbitrary decision on the part of our government," Ridge said Oct. 3. "There was sufficient information within the international intelligence community about this individual that we felt warranted his deportation."

A U.S. intelligence official said Tuesday on condition of anonymity that some of the information came from Canada’s foreign intelligence agencies.

Officials said on condition of anonymity that the Arar case fits the profile of a covert CIA "extraordinary rendition" — the practice of turning over low-level, suspected terrorists to foreign intelligence services, some of which are known to torture prisoners.

Arar’s case has brought repeated apologies from the Canadian government.

Chretien, answering questions from opposition lawmakers in Parliament, ignored calls for a public inquiry into Arar’s case but said Canada has asked Syria and the United States for the names of any Canadian officials involved.

Chretien also said the United States should have informed Canada about Arar’s deportation to Syria, while Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham said it surprised Canadian consular officials in New York to learn Arar was flown to the Middle East. In Washington a senior State Department official said Wednesday that Secretary of State Colin Powell told Graham he would look into the matter. It was unclear if Powell would have any influence, as terrorism issues generally come under the Justice and Homeland Security departments.

In an interview on CBC Radio, Imad Moustafa, the Syrian charge d’affaires in Washington, denied that Arar had been tortured. Arar said U.S. officials apparently based the terrorism accusation on his connection to Abdullah Almalki, another Syrian-born Canadian. Almalki is being detained by Syrian authorities although no charges against him have been reported. Arar said he knew Almalki only casually before his detention but encountered him at the Syrian prison where both were tortured.

Arar, whose case has become a cause celebre in Canada, demanded a public inquiry. "I am not a terrorist," he said. "I am not a member of al-Qaida. I have never been to Afghanistan."

He said he was flying home to Montreal by way of New York on Sept. 26, 2002, from a family visit to Tunisia. "This is when my nightmare began," he said. "I was pulled aside by immigration and taken [away]. The police came and searched my bags. I asked to make a phone call, and they would not let me." He said an FBI agent and a New York City police officer questioned him. "I was so scared," he said. "They told me I had no right to a lawyer because I was not an American citizen."

Arar said he was shackled, placed on a small jet and flown to Washington, where "a new team of people got on the plane" and took him to Amman, the capital of Jordan. Arar said U.S. officials handed him over to Jordanian authorities, who "blindfolded and chained me and put me in a van. ... They made me bend my head down in the back seat. Then these men started beating me. Every time I tried to talk, they beat me."

He said he was taken hours later to Syria, where he was forced to write that he had attended a training camp in Afghanistan. "They kept beating me, and I had to falsely confess," he said. "I was willing to confess to anything to stop the torture."

Arar said his prison cell "was like a grave, exactly like a grave. It had no light; it was 3 feet wide; it was 6 feet deep; it was 7 feet high.... It had a metal door. There was a small opening in the ceiling. There were cats and rats up there, and from time to time the cats peed through the opening into the cell."

Steven Watt, a human-rights fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights in Washington, said Arar’s case raised questions about U.S. counterterrorism measures. "Here we have the United States involved in the removal of somebody to a country where it knows persons in custody of security agents are tortured," Watt said. "The U.S. was possibly benefiting from the fruits of that torture. I ask the question: Why wasn’t he removed to Canada?"

A senior U.S. intelligence official discussed the case in terms of the secret rendition policy. There have been "a lot of rendition activities" since Sept. 11, 2001, the official said. "We are doing a number of them, and they have been very productive."

Renditions are a legitimate option for dealing with suspected terrorists, intelligence officials argue. The U.S. government officially rejects the assertion that it knowingly sends suspects abroad to be tortured, but officials admit they sometimes do that. "The temptation is to have these folks in other hands because they have different standards," one official said. "Someone might be able to get information we can’t from detainees," another official said.

Syria, where use of torture during imprisonment has been documented by the State Department and independent human-rights organizations, maintains a secret but growing intelligence relationship with the CIA, intelligence experts said. Jordan has strong and longstanding ties with U.S. intelligence.

Information for this article was contributed in Toronto by Deneen L. Brown and in Washington by Dana Priest, John Mintz and Glenn Kessler of The Washington Post and in Toronto by Tom Cohen of The Associated Press.

This issue is raising all hell in Parliment now...... and it looks like a investigation into this will be launched. There are arguements to not only examine the actions of the Canadian authorities but also the actions of the individuals involved and wether or not they okayed the deportation to Syria.

If it turns out that he was deported to Syria and not Canada on word from someone in Canada serious shit will hit the fan, because that would mean that someone was in effect an accomplice to torture.

If it turns out that he was deported to Syria and not Canada on word from someone in the US, then the shit will hit the fan in the form of lawsuits and charges under international law.

Either which way it has acually made CPAC interesting to watch......

Up, there should be an official investigation both in Canada and the States on how an innocent man can be dealt like this.

Like taking a spoon to a hornets nest...I'ma stirring it up..

I feel bad for the torture the fella endured, and it should be looked into, becasue no one should have to endure that, BUT

<Warning to some of our Canadian friends to brace themselves for the argument that some of them hate to hear and yet think doesnt involve them in the least>

But I REALLY dont think Canada is in ANY position to advise the US on how we handle our immigration/deportation policy. Someone refresh my memory on the exact number, um, I think it was 17 of the Sept 11 terrorists entered the US via Canada? Yeah. Thanks. Sit down and shut up Mr. Chretien.

Dont like it? Dont fly through OUR country. Getting detained/deported is a risk you take being a non-citizen, coming from a country thats on our watch list AND us having intel on you? Sorry if the US covered its ass. I am aware of the risks I take when I go to Mexico. I know I dont have any rights there. Am I non citizen in Mexico demanding rights? No. Not at all.

Arrogant American? Absolutely.

Because I can think of about 3,000 reasons from NY and DC and a field in Pennsylvania why I feel that way.

Edited: No Comment to Lifesaver. Nuff Said

This Maher Arer fella.. anyone here know for sure he's not a terrorist? Didn't think so. It's not so far fetched for me to argue that he's actually a member of Al Quaida arguing against this method of interrogation because in many cases, it works!

If the torture of one terrorist saves lives, then in my mind, it's worth it.

If torturing terrorists for information could have prevented 9-11 I'd have certainly supported it. I think what we're all forgetting is that this is a war. If you don't go after the enemy, kill him, do what is necessary, he will kill you.

While I understand the anger.... so far it hasn't turned out that he had concrete terrorist conections (otherwise Syria would've turned him back over to the US), what the concern is with is the violation of his rights and US law.

Specifically if he requested to be deported to Canada, and instead was deported to Syria, that is a violation of US law.

Re: Like taking a spoon to a hornets nest...I'ma stirring it up..

Quote:

Originally posted by lifesaver

>

But I REALLY dont think Canada is in ANY position to advise the US on how we handle our immigration/deportation policy. Someone refresh my memory on the exact number, um, I think it was 17 of the Sept 11 terrorists entered the US via Canada? Yeah. Thanks. Sit down and shut up Mr. Chretien.

This is a tired and useless aregument -- in order for someone to pass from Canada into the United States they must pass through AMERICAN customs. Whether they came through Canada or not US officials still had to allow them into the US. It is no different then if they had flown directly into the US -- Didn't most of them take up residency in the US as well? That requires a whole lot of paperwork if you aren't a citizen of the United States, including background checks. Don't blame our government for allowing them to enter Canada, when your government allowed them to enter the USA.

Re: Like taking a spoon to a hornets nest...I'ma stirring it up..

Quote:

Originally posted by lifesaver
But I REALLY dont think Canada is in ANY position to advise the US on how we handle our immigration/deportation policy. Someone refresh my memory on the exact number, um, I think it was 17 of the Sept 11 terrorists entered the US via Canada? Yeah. Thanks. Sit down and shut up Mr. Chretien.

Dont like it? Dont fly through OUR country. Getting detained/deported is a risk you take being a non-citizen, coming from a country thats on our watch list AND us having intel on you? Sorry if the US covered its ass. I am aware of the risks I take when I go to Mexico. I know I dont have any rights there. Am I non citizen in Mexico demanding rights? No. Not at all.

Arrogant American? Absolutely.

Because I can think of about 3,000 reasons from NY and DC and a field in Pennsylvania why I feel that way.

1. Check your facts, as far as I know (well according to the (9/11 Inquiry in the US) none of the terrorists used Canadian Visas nor entered through the Canada..... the either flew direct from Germany or Suadi Arabia. So you can sit down and shut up yourself.

2. Canada was the first nation to offer assistance and comfort to the US. Canada accepted hundereds of flights (that could have included more terrorists) despite the risk and housed the stranded passengers (and in a lot of cases in our own homes).

3. There are basic human and civil rights guarenteed by the US in your laws.... you can't pick and choose which ones to follow when they prove "bothersome".

4. Yes 3000 people died on 9/11, of which 1000 were foreign citizens..... including my uncle.

Yes the US and Canada randomly picked a person to do this too. The world is so random sometimes. I think today I will randomly call immigration on the first foreign looking person when I eat lunch.

-Rudey
--This post is randomly good.

Will there be mistakes with this practice? Yup.

Does that mean it should not be used? In my opinion, a few "casualties" as horrible as it sounds should be acceptable. This is a war, sometimes people's human rights need to take a back seat when it means the potential life and death of thousands of people.

I have little doubt that these torture tactics have already and will save lives later. War is not always a pretty thing.

We should interrogate all Canadians.

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake

This is a war, sometimes people's human rights need to take a back seat when it means the potential life and death of thousands of people.

This is a really frightening statement.

Quote:

Originally posted by sugar and spice
This is a really frightening statement.

That's the world we live in today.

There are people out there that would love to have all Americans dead. I believe that it is our right and our government's DUTY to protect its people by whatever means possible.

Yes, so if it involves infringing on even a suspected terrorist's human rights, then so be it. If such techniques didn't yield results, I doubt that they'd be used.

In war, you can't afford to leave yourself open in any way to your enemy. He will most certainly exploit any weakness you exhibit.

Sure, they screwed up this time (maybe).

I think many of ya'll will argue that this practice is immoral.

How many of you will argue that it doesn't save American lives?

In this world, in this environment, being idealistic is a luxury we cannot afford anymore.

It goes against everything America was founded for.

Sure, it might save lives. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But there are a lot of things that we could do in America to save lives that completely infringe upon our liberties that the country's founding was based upon. We could ban guns. We could give the death penalty to accused murderers without a trial. In fact, we could lock up anybody who so much as hits someone just IN CASE they kill anyone, because they have violent tendencies. But is that fair? No. Is it American? Definitely not.

I love it when people consider themselves oh so patriotic, yet their vision of America goes completely against what this country was founded to be. That's not patriotism.