Black Conservatism "envogue"?
 

I was watching the 700 Club last night and they had on there a story about JC Watts. He has a book called "What Color is a Conservative" in which he tries to point out that many of the values of conservative thought are congruent with traditional African American values (family, hard work, religion, etc.). I think that it is time for us here on GC to open up this issue (I've been thinking about this for a while, especially since the "radical views" thread on Delta Ave. a while back). If you think you are a conservative and Black, how do you think you became a conservative? Does believeing in values such as family, hard work, and religion (God) automatically translate into conservative politics (like so many republicans want to assert)? Can conservative thought be considered the 21st Century Black Intelligencia's response to political and economic oppression? What do you guys think?
Blackwatch!!!!!!

A LOT of black people are FISCALLY very conservative I think, but socially can't get behind the conservative agenda.

Not to say that I do not feel that family values and hard work are worth promoting, but that is not ALL they promote. I know I for one would not feel comfortable with a group that is so heavily influenced by groups that promote the worst kinds of racism and homophobia- like the religious right. I am DOWN with a lot of the fiscal programs (vouchers, tax cuts), even some of the military actions (SOME) but I can't be down with a group that feels the government should be involved in every step of our lives (that's my problem with teh democrats- FDR impemented some great plans that took the country out of the depression, people took the good intentions behind the plans and ran with them, but I think some are no longer necessary or need to be modified. big government costs us money) and impose some kind of moral rule.

Definitely not a liberal...
 

As I'm getting older, I'm realizing that the liberal agenda is full of it!

I really think the liberal agenda has caused sooooooo much of the problems that the AA community is dealing with.

Examples of reasons the liberal agenda stinks:
You can't pray in school, but your teenage daughter can get condoms and referred to an abortion clinic if need be

They want gun control for law abiding citizens, which would mean the bulk of guns in the hands of criminals

They support the ACLU who stands up for certain parts of the constitution, but not the NRA who stand up for certain parts of the constitution

Too much trust in the public schools

Too much responsibility on the government to provide for people, and not enough responsibility for the individual person

Supporting homosexuality, beastiality, and anything else some freak-o wants to do... (maybe this should be on the radical and controversial thread :eek: )

But those things name a few of the reasons why I can't get down with the liberal agenda....

Conservatism just seems to fit my morals, my agenda, and my goals...

Re: Definitely not a liberal...
 

What is it about the conservative agenda you find so appealing? I have of course not read all of your posts, but have read several denouncing liberal agenda items and the Democrats. I am not as clear on what is appealing to you about conservatives and Republicans specifically (proposed items, specific positions on issues, etc.)

Just trying to learn and understand.

Moderate
 

As per Reiki's post and the definitions, I'm a moderate. I find sensible positions in both liberals and conservatives. For instance, I'm pro-choice (which surprises people because I absolutely adore infants) and don't mind paying taxes for educational purposes.

But I also am not in favor of long-term welfare dependency and I believe in personal responsibility and adherence to mainstream values. For instance, if you're going to have sex, use birth control and don't give birth to children that you can't support on a routine basis (I'm not speaking of things such as job loss via layoff).

Re: Definitely not a liberal...
 

Re: Re: Definitely not a liberal...
 

I'd be happy to elaborate. But did you read my post on this thread? Those are some main reasons. But I'll add more things later..

I never really called myself a Repub or a Dem, .... or a conservative or a democrat because I could never agree with anybody, all the time, about everything. I usually try to say I'm Independent or moderate..... It's just that if I had to look at the issues in a conservative vs. liberal context, I identify more with the conservative side of things.

But for example, and this may surprise folx, but if/when I'm an elected official, I would not oppose abortion. Although I personally feel it is murder, I would not take that right away from all the women in the world.

Re: Re: Re: Definitely not a liberal...
 

Of course I read your original post, it was what led to my question.

In your post you highlighted shortcomings with "liberal" positions, but you did not explicitly espouse the conservative doctrines with which you agree. Rather than infer what your beliefs were, I asked. To go by your post, it could be inferred that you are for prayer in school, against distributing birth control or access to abortion, opposed to gun control, believe the NRA's interpretation of the second amendment to be accurate, dislike the public school model, believe the government takes on too much social responsibility, and that liberals are pro-perversion.

Clearly, all of these are not exactly what you believe. But since you post was drafted as a rebuttal to the liberal standpoint (in your opinion) it is not clear what you do actually believe in on these topics. I was just trying to gauge what it was about conservatism you appreciated other than it being in opposition to liberalism. And I thought it better to ask than put words in your mouth. (There is enough of that that goes on on GC that I am all for asking someone if you want to know what they think or mean.)

So since this is a very contemporary issue and one of great relevance, in my opinion, to the Black community, I wanted to hear what a self professed conservative would say about her views.

I look forward to your response, Soror.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Definitely not a liberal...
 

Ok Soror. I think this is a case of it's right there in front of ya! You actually loosely interpreted what I believe closely!! Scary isn't it!! :eek: Of course my complete belief can't be summed up in a sentence, but you basically got the gist of those things.

My bad. I thought I was clear by saying what I didn't like about the liberal agenda, ......meaning the opposite was my viewpoint.

Thanks for asking though....

But my question to you, and anyone else, is what's so good about the liberal agenda????


LOL @ when you said I don't clearly believe these things!! :D :eek: ;) :) :p

Interesting...
 

So far, the responses have been very thought provoaking and insightful. I just wonder though, people have talked about why they are not liberals as opposed to why they are conservatives. Like there's an either/or scenario in this debate. I do not think there is nor should there be a zero sum gain in this discussion.

To me, conservatism represents an interesting conundrum in the African American community because you are talking about a people with a history of a tremendous religious and moral resolve, and yet out of this resolve came liberal politics. Conservatism is a political stance more so than a moral or religious one, just as liberalism is. Many people will say that these stances come out of moral traditions and ideas about political issues, but too often the religion and morality being preached by either side is merely a medium through which the political agendas are expressed.

Political conservatism is characterised by a desire to keep things the way they are, don't change too much or allow for too much government control. Many conservatives go on to cite that America is great because if you work hard, you can succeed. The converse of this maxim indicates that those who haven't succeeded haven't because they haven't worked hard enough, or have some moral defect (made bad choices, not disciplined, etc.). This presupposes that the society is just, and everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed. With a cursory glance at rates of incarceration, home ownership, educational achievement, etc. one can see that Blacks fall on the short end of these indices far too often. From these numbers, one would have to conclude that either:

-Blacks are just not equipped to compete in a society based on a market economy (conservatism)
or
-There is something in the society that causes blacks to come up short disproportionately in many areas therefore, we must change the political economy of the society (liberalism).

Political conservatives are often aligned with the religious right. But a reading of the Old Testament prophets and Jesus' teachings would lead you to believe that the Christian faith calls for a transformation (liberal) of society and to not be not satisfied with inequality and dehumanization. Too often political conservatives blame Black folks for inequalitites that they did not create. Conservatives to try to appeal to the religious and moral resolve of blacks by commenting on the liberal stances on certain moral issues (homosexuality and abortion) and trying to equate them with affirming these practices. It's funny because most conservatives (thinking back to the 2000 republican presidential primary debates) would be against any law that protected pro-choice agendas, yet if their family members had gotten pregnant unexpectedly, they wouldn't stop them from having one (Bush and McCain both voiced this sentiment). Which leads me to my critical point about political conservatism, at is core IT IS ABOUT CLASS PRIVILEDGE. When the government gets involved with certain aspects of our lives, then class status of individuals becomes less important, because the government is charged to protect the rights of all citizens. Conservatism is about allowing the rich to get richer and have certain priviledges that others don't, simply to affirm their class status. This works well in our society, that hopes that all in the society agree that the rich deserve their money, and the poor deserve their poverty. This allows for there to be such disparity in our society, and things be justified in the name of "desservedness". While yes, the best way to fight the oppression is to overcome it through empowering ourselves to fight (making better decisions, educating ourselves, practicing discipline, etc.) It doesn't mean that our society is just, and that we should be happy with the status quo, as many conservatives would have us to believe.

I have critiques of liberalism as well, but that is another thread altogether.

Blackwatch!!!!!!

Dependence or protection?
 

Reiki,
You ask the question...
"Why should the government be actively involved in the promotion of the social welfare of the nation's citizens? In theory that could be for the benefit of a people that has been historically oppressed in a nation, but in my opinion it has created a system of government dependence, not just a system that ensures the social welfare of all people."

Well in a simple answer, consider "Reaganomics" in the 1980's. This is a prime example of what I am talking about as being the logical end with political conservatism. Reaganomics was possibly the greatest conservative experiment in contemporary times. He deregulated everything and allowed the "Market" to dictate the fortunes of our society. When this happens, the powerful move to acquire more power, at the expense of the powerless. Gaps in economic and political power widen, and the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and its all justified by "The Market" with greed becoming a norm in our society (Think about it, Lifestyles of the rich and famous became popular, people like Donald trump and Leona Helmsly, Ted Turner, all come to promenance in the 80's).

Without Government protection (Not dependence) the inequalities in our society become greater and greater because power in our society rests in class status. Many conservatives talk about the growing roles of welfare queens and people getting fat off of welfare, but in the 1990's, welfare (as we categorize it) took up less than 1% of gov't spending. Contrary to popular belief, no one is geting rich off of welfare, except the Conservative corporate CEO's who benefit from tax shelters and cheap overseas labor, which costs our society alot more than AFDC could ever imagine. But that is another story though :D .

Blackwatch!!!!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Definitely not a liberal...
 

Love Spell,

Well, then. I think it is interesting that so many describe why the are conservatives by saying what they dislike about liberals. It is an interesting way to share your beliefs. Just because that is what you dislike about liberals does not mean that is why you are a conservative. There are liberals who agree with some of the things that you said. I would like to see someone tell why they are a conservative through an affirmative description of what they believe.

As to the “clearly, you don’t believe all of these things…”- Your “why I am not a liberal post” would have lead me to believe that you are against abortion rights. However, you in a later post indicated that you are pro-choice. I asked you what you believed rather than trying to flip all of your statements around so I could get your views from you rather than my assumptions. You had already shown me one of my assumptions, based on your statements, was wrong.

And, as you indicated, I highly doubled your views were as simplistic as just flipping those quips around. I was hoping for more insight on what appeals to you, and others about conservatism. I guess I’ll see if anyone else posts.

BTW- Who said I was a Democrat or a liberal myself? :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Definitely not a liberal...
 

[I found this saying about liberals and conservatives:

A liberal will let a few people cheat the system
to make sure that nobody goes hungry.

A conservative will let a few people go hungry to
make sure nobody cheats the system.


Not true. A conservative will stack the deck in his favor prior to the game, and then demand that no one cheats, and when he wins, he will swear its because he is better.

BLACKWATCH, my brother, we finally agree once again. Although I am very big on personal responsibilty being the major indicator for whether or not you fail in life, the SYSTEM is set up for few to Prosper, most to get by, many to Struggle, and a great deal to baely Survive.

The GAME that conservatives play is to get social conservatives distracted by red herrings like welfare, gun control, abortion, affirmative action etc. The rich laugh because none of these things effect them, nor their agenda one bit. Their agenda is to get rich by passing laws that enrich their industries and allow them to consolidate power. You hit it on the head with deregulation. Now 3 or 4 companies control all of radio, television, cable etc. Who gets rich by drilling in Alaska? Who makes money by starting a war in Iraq?

I'm a very traditional person, so by nature that makes me socially conservative, but I am very Libertarian when it comes to personal conduct, and I believe that the government should only be liberal when addressing institutional inequities, not for pushing social agendas. When it comes to assisting the Black community, we need a radical change in philosophy and approach. Liberal policies that addressed inequities in the previous decades no longer work and we need to stop holding on to them. They make us weak and dependent. Now that we have grown up, we need to shake loose the shackles of government paternalism and turn to philosophies that challenge US to be responsible sheperds of our own lives and futures. We still need help, but not the kind that keeps us co-dependent and weak. Jesse and Al are great and I thank them, but we need to mine some new intellectual and political capital, and not the same "government owes us, and we are gonna cry til you pacify us" philosophy.

I will never cast my lot with Trent Lott's bunch, but we need to break from Liberal dependence. Its as debilitating as Republican indifference.

I AM FAIRLY NEW TO GREEKCHAT BUT I AM LOVING THE DEEP INTELLECTUAL CONVERSATIONS THAT I READ!!!!! WELL SAID DOGGYSTYLE82. EVERYONE HAS MADE VALID POINTS FOR HOW THEY SEE THIS PICTURE, BUT I MUST AGREE WITH DOGGYSTYLE82!!! TRUTHFULLY, NO ONE POLITICAL PARTY IS GOING TO SUPPORT ANY AGENDA THAT WILL HELP BRING THE INEQUALITIES BETWEEN AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND THE MAJORITY CLOSER TOGETHER UNTIL WE SHOW THEM THAT WE ARE WORTH FIGHTING FOR.....BY THIS I MEAN VOTING, LOBBYING, ETC. HOWEVER, BY THE TONE OF THIS THREAD I GUESS I AM PREACHING TO THE CHOIR.

Historically Blacks have been the moral fiber of America in the sence that we have caused America at different points of it's history to look at itself. That is based on a conservative home based process. When it comes to economics we believe in a liberal agenda in general. I consider myself inbetween. I am liberal on such issues as abortion and the economy but conservative on others. I think it is unfair to put a group of people in a political agenda. Neither Democrat nor Republican can truly represent a group of people 100%. I also think that political parties have been the downfall of true democracy. If the senate is to represent us overall why is there a majority leader? There should be a leader voted upon by the whole senate. Political parties dominate this country too much in my opinion.

Sphinxpoet