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-   -   Justifiable? (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=22764)

AKA2D '91 08-29-2002 12:20 AM

Justifiable?
 
Early one morning a guy notices a couple of guys attempting to steal his vehicle. He goes inside his upstairs apartment and gets his gun. The man fires and kills one of the suspected thieves.

Should he be prosecuted? Was he justified?


This actually happened.

straightBOS 08-29-2002 12:29 AM

Depends on the state. In Texas you can kill the repo man, no questions asked.

Personally, I say, he had every right to do it. And, if it were me, I would have shot to kill as well. Luckily for them, no one wants my old Buick Regal. That's cool, no hard feelings.

Rae1 08-29-2002 01:28 AM

Hello ladies,

May I first begin by saying that I have been a silent observer of this board a little over 8 months. I would like to thank all the members of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc for all the words of wisdom shared throughout this board.

I have never been compelled to become a member and participate in the conversation until I read this thread. The situation posted by AKA2D '91, as described in the post, is premeditated murder and the perpetrator should certainly be prosecuted. I am not sure if I believe in the death penalty. However, I am positive that the man should not have killed the people attempting to break into or steal his vehicle.

I believe someone has a right to defend him/herself and anyone else if they were in immediate danger. However, the man discribed in the given scenario was not in immediate danger. How would he know that the suspects were trying to steal the vehicle -vs- merely breaking into the car to steal items inside? Please note, I am in no way condoning the felons for commiting this crime. However, that is why we have a judicial system. Citizens cannot and should not take the law into their own hands. This could cause chaos.

The question I would ask anyone who believes the owner of the vehicle was 'justified' in his actions: Is an automobile and it's replacable contents more valuable than a human life? That answer will forever be NO in my book. The owner of the vehicle could just as easily went back up to his apartment and called 911 to report the suspects and have officers come out. Even if the suspects got away with stealing the vehicle, it couldn't be worse than dealing with the car owner's conscience. Certainly reporting your vehicle stolen and filing a claim against your insurance would be much easier than dealing with the guilt of killing two people the rest of your life.

OK, sorry this post was so long. I just find it hard to believe that people think that it is OK to place the law into their own hands and deal with criminals any way THEY see fit. It is wrong and immoral.

Rae

Nappy_in_NJ 08-29-2002 09:28 AM

That man was NOT justified in shooting the car thieves. The first thing I thought was why didn't he just call the cops or try to scare them away with the gun. :confused:

How can we get mad at cops for this type of behavior but accept it amongst ourselves?

FeeFee 08-29-2002 09:29 AM

According to New York State law, the shooting would not be considered justifiable and the shooter would be prosecuted. The car theft victim is supposed to call 911 and let the police officers deal with the perps.

Kisha 08-29-2002 10:14 AM

Good topic!

If I had the nerve, I would shoot 'em up. Bang! Bang! But I wouldn't try to kill him.

I'm undecided on where I stand on this one.

ENDROAD 08-29-2002 11:47 AM

I stand steadfast in the belief that the person who was being robbed is the victim and not the other way around. There are many innocent bystanders who are hurt or killed everyday but in this situation this person was not innocent. They were engaged in an illegal act against this individual who has the right to protect himself and his property. One of the Lord's commandments states that "Thou should not convent though neighbors property."

Therefore, not only was this person doing something illegal by United States law but also immoral by what I consider to be a higher law, God's law.

In my city we just had an incident where a 16 attempted to break in the home of an elderly couple and was shot in the head (killed). The elderly man was not charged but only a few days later his home was shot up. Arson has also been threatened. This couple has moved out of their home out of fear. The young man only lived about 4 houses down from them all these years.

Afrochic 08-29-2002 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ENDROAD

In my city we just had an incident where a 16 attempted to break in the home of an elderly couple and was shot in the head (killed). The elderly man was not charged but only a few days later his home was shot up. Arson has also been threatened. This couple has moved out of their home out of fear. The young man only lived about 4 houses down from them all these years.

I know the exact story you're speaking of. But I dont understand, this guy broke into the elderly couple's house. The husband feared for his life and the life of his family. If I were in the situation I would have done the same, no questions asked. That 16 year old wasn't coming by to make sure they had their daily newspaper. If you are bold enough to enter my house without owning a key then you have to bold enough to take the bullets thou will lay upon thee. The neighbors didn't like the fact that the elderly man protected himself and family from an intruder, but on the other hand they fired several shots into his house that could have killed someone. To me, this is similar to those who protest abortions, but kill or attempt to kill the doctors and patients in the abortion clinics.

Ideal08 08-29-2002 01:15 PM

Justifiable by what?
 
Ethics or law?

Was the shooter a marksman? If not, maybe he didn't kill him on purpose. That's the difference between him and the police. Policemen are marksmen, they don't have to shoot to kill, they can aim. Regular people can't (which is why they don't need guns). How far away from the robber was the shooter? How do we know it was premeditated unless we know he shot to kill? I don't think he should be prosecuted. Ol' dude shouldn't've been over there, he'd still be alive.

I don't know... I thought that if the person was on your property, whatever happens, happens. I remember learning something about someone stealing and running away from the house... you could shoot them as long as it was before they reached the sidewalk.

I bet his friend won't steal nothin' else, though. That's rehabilitation like a mug!

Afrochic 08-29-2002 01:34 PM

Re: Justifiable by what?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Ideal08
I don't know... I thought that if the person was on your property, whatever happens, happens. I remember learning something about someone stealing and running away from the house... you could shoot them as long as it was before they reached the sidewalk.

I bet his friend won't steal nothin' else, though. That's rehabilitation like a mug!

The lawyer on the news stated if a person breaks into your home you can shoot them, as long as they are inside your home, but once he/she is outside of your home such as on the doorstep, in the yard, etc., it's handled on a case by case basis.

Marie 08-29-2002 01:46 PM

not justified
 
I really don't feel that this shooting was justified. We're not just talking about an injury or property. We are talking about someone's life! That person's life is over with, and there is nothing that anyone can ever do to give back whatever future that person may have had to him or his family.

When Malcom X was a young man he was a thief, but look at the change he made. If he had been shot and killed at that time he would have never been able to impact our community the way that he did. Who is anyone to take away this person's chance to make a change, too?

Lastly, if the homeowner had shot and missed the thief but killed a small child, we would be yelling to "throw the book at him". Even though that didn't happen here, if he is let go it will send a message to others that this is acceptable. Then how will we feel if it is our child who is accidentally killed by a vigilanty taking the law into his own hands?

Afrochic 08-29-2002 02:15 PM

Re: not justified
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Marie
I really don't feel that this shooting was justified. We're not just talking about an injury or property. We are talking about someone's life! That person's life is over with, and there is nothing that anyone can ever do to give back whatever future that person may have had to him or his family.

When Malcom X was a young man he was a thief, but look at the change he made. If he had been shot and killed at that time he would have never been able to impact our community the way that he did. Who is anyone to take away this person's chance to make a change, too?

Lastly, if the homeowner had shot and missed the thief but killed a small child, we would be yelling to "throw the book at him". Even though that didn't happen here, if he is let go it will send a message to others that this is acceptable. Then how will we feel if it is our child who is accidentally killed by a vigilanty taking the law into his own hands?

In regards to a car theft, I ain't shooting no one that's stealing my parked car. I don't think that's justified. My life is not in danger when I'm in the house and you're stealing my car...unless you run my car into my house but that's another issue. Take the isht, so I can get another one, it's not that serious.

Now to the home invasion issue. We can always say what we shouldn't, couldn't or wouldn't do unless we've had a mother, sister, or even your father faced in a life threatening situation. Would I protect myself and my family even if it means shooting? Yes without a doubt. I wouldn't intentionally kill anyone, but everyone has survival instinct. Let me share a true story with you all. My sister was robbed and left for dead ten years ago. She was beaten beyond recognition. She has had several plastic surgeries to attempt to make her look as normal as possible. To this day she can't live a regular adult life. If I was with her, with a gun, would I protect her and myself by any means? Hell Yes! I wouldn't go around pulling a Charles Bronson but I'm speaking of protecting myself. This low life high school dropout career criminal stole a few damn dollars from her and robbed her of a normal life. He was never convicted for the crime.
Would he have made an impact in our community? I don't know the loser is dead. Someone violated him the same way he violated my sister. The only difference is he succumb to his injuries while my sister lives everyday with hers.

FeeFee 08-29-2002 02:54 PM

Loving this topic!!!
 
When someones shoots, stabs, etc. another person in the name of "self-defense", this is the issue that will almost always be brought up by police authorities, DA's office, etc (at least in New York):


Did the perpetrator (suspect) in question threaten imminent danger of death or grievous bodily injury to his/her victim(s)??

If the answer to that question is "yes", then the shooting would be considered to be justifiable. If the answer is "no" then the person can be charged with the shooting (charges will of course vary depending on whether or not the person shot lived or not).

RedefinedDiva 08-29-2002 05:07 PM

I don't feel that the shooter should be prosecuted for the shooting. Plain and simple. Of course, it is absolutely sad that the young man is dead, however, he had no business breaking into that man's car. People work hard for their possessions and here comes Joe, John, and James Blow to steal it. GET YOUR OWN S**T!! Innocent people are killed daily because some clown doesn't want to get off of his a$$ and work to get his own possessions. Instead, they shoot and kill hard-working citizens everyday. Everyone is saying that he should have let the young man just take the car, CDs, etc., and just call the police. HELLO?!! What about the innocent people in the world who submit and turn over their items and STILL get killed?

:rolleyes: He should have been at home doing the right thing. If someone wants to be bold enough to REPEATEDLY come to my home and break into my car and steal MY stuff, then he should know that there are consequences.

ClassyLady 08-29-2002 06:04 PM

Re: Loving this topic!!!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by FeeFee
Did the perpetrator (suspect) in question threaten imminent danger of death or grievous bodily injury to his/her victim(s)??

In answering your question, I don't feel that this shooting would be justified because the shooter could not have possibly felt that the danger was imminent. He saw them attempting to steal his car. He turned went inside and upstairs to his apartment, retrieved his weapon, returned and opened fire. He did all of this without the perpetrators' knowledge. He returned with intent to shoot and harm the perpetrators and should therefore be prosecuted for his crime. If he was really fearing for his life, he could have called 911 when he went into his home. I'm sure that he came across his phone before he got the gun.

Self-defense comes with limits. You are only allowed to defend yourself by physically harming another while you are fearinf imminent danger. When you have a chance to get away, you have to do so.

Couldn't this man just have yelled "hey you, get away from my car" from his window? Most people who break into parked cars aren't trying to hurt anyone physically. They just want to get away with some money. If they think that they'll be caught, they run, not fight.


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