war on Iraq?
 

The Following was my responce to a chain letter, I figured I'd post if because I want to see what other people like or unlike me would think about it

<b> please note, this post has been edited in that the sources of facts have been listed next to them within parenthesis begining with an asterix</b>
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I understand that a lot of people don't support war on Iraq, but It's innevetable. We've been bombing Iraq (*ColonelJ.T Russel, my Senior Army Instructor) and maintaining a no-fly zone over Kurdish territory for the last couple of years (*New York Times) because we're affraid of the weapons Sadam's building (that's why the UN sends weapons inspectors there). The irony is that we taught him how to build those weapons in hopes he'd use them on Iran(*AP US History class, and Military Science class). Much in the same way we trained Osama, with the "School of the Americas" which despite political pressures still exists, just under a different name. (*National Public Radio)

Knowing all of this I still support my country on its way to war not because of youthful naivity. On the contrary, I believe it is naive to oppose this war just because you oppose war in general. Doing so is like flushing a history book down the toilet for it overlooks an integral part of what humanity is. Nor do I feel exuberant patriotism. Rather I support this:

The Dept. of Defense is the largest employer in America (*First Seargent Juman, and government printed textbook for Military Science class). War means jobs, and economic infusions (*Professor William Dollard: war is a great industry for the US). I think that this kind of publicized war is a step in the right direction. At least we know what's going on through media coverage. The US has been involved in 500-some-odd military conflicts (*US Press Secretary Ari Fleischer) . The number of those that have been declared "war" and opened to the public for any form of scrutiny is pretty small. I'm certainly a fan of OVERT politics and ethics discussions rather than COVERT operations that used to be the norm for agencies like the CIA to carry out. It was those sort of COVERT missions that backfired, bringing the advent of Osama, and the Iraque conflicts.



In critisizm of the below quoted chain letter: I don't think a war today would cost 200 thousand lives (If anyone can post how many lives lost in Afghanistan I'd appreciate it a lot). And what of the $60 Billion? That's the kind of money we send Israel as a weekly allowance so that they can kill Palestinians. (*Rhetorical. I am informed that in fact we send $3 billion a year to Israel) . I'm sure that Islamic fundamentalists will reavaluate their qualms with the US If we stop funding Sharons genocide campaign (*when I watch CNN I see Israeli's with automatic weapons and palestinians with stones). And mailing post cards didn't seem to work against our recent campaigns in Bosnia, Rwanda, or Afghanistan. However isn't errata what democracy is all about, so If you have an oppinion about this war, by all means; support the US postal service!


----> >----------------
> > In a message dated 8/12/02 10:34:34 AM,
> .... @lehman.cuny.edu writes:
> >
> > <<
> >
> > President Bush is considering starting a war by
> invading Iraq. Many of
> us do not believe that this the right thing to do.
> (the cost would be an unknown
> > numbers of lives, two hundred thousand American
> troops and sixty billion
> > dollars.) In an effort to make our point of view
> heard, I am suggesting
> that
> > as many citizens as possible mail a post card to
> the white House asking
> him not to start another war.
> > So I am asking you to forward this e mail to as
> many people as you can...
...blah blah blah

For what it's worth, I fully support a war on Iraq. Even if I didn't support such an act against Iraq, I would support my country if it came down war.

Some may say that the United States put itself in this position, this may be true. But how are you able to tell that someone will turn on you or use your training and previous help against you?

Crap
 

Anyone who doesn't support a war on Iraq either shoots two arguments out there. One is the standard "War bad, peace good" argument. The second is the "American joe, you mean, not world cop!" argument. In either case, both arguments come from parties that are badly misinformed. Then again, I can't say much for most of the people who support the war.

-Rudey
--Just attack them so the sissies who wear Birkenstocks can go back to crying about Tibet.

Re: war on Iraq?
 

Your posts are ignorant and I do not appreciate them. However, it is more than likely that you simply do not understand how you're presenting your words. As a concerned GC member, I would ask that you reconsider what you say before you post.

-Rudey
--No flaming.

I don't know, it's a tough call.

International law is against overthrowing a sovreign head of state by another country. In fact, any kind of intervention in a sovreign country is technically illegal but that hasn't stopped us in the past.

I agree that Sadaam Hussein needs to go, he is a monster and he has ruined his country over the time of his reign. He is an absolute dictator who has commited many human rights violations over his time.

Unfortunatly, overthrowing Hussein will not bring instant democracy to Iraq. His regime has put out so much anti-American/pro-Hussein propaganda that it will take alot of effort to change things. There was an appeal by Hussein recently calling for his citizens to serve as his human shields in case of war. Thousands of people applied to serve as martyrs so that Hussein wouldn't be hurt. Despite his brutal record, people are lining up to protect him. That is the mindset that we are dealing with here. People with very little education and know of no other way of life than blindly following an evil dictator.

War may help the situation. I hope Hussein is overthrown, either by his own people or by outside force. But it is important to realize that you can't just go in and overthrow their leader and think that the Iraqi people will be eternally grateful and become an instant democratic state.

I'll edit this later to add evidence/names of treaties etc... but I don't have the energy to thik too hard at 8:15 in the morning.

If the US is prepared to take the role of state building, which mean funnelling in billions of dollars. Also the US must prepared for the flactuation of petrol price, cause those SUV will need to be fed.

BTW, overthrowing of a leader, no matter how brutal he or she is, is against every international laws in the book. Plus history will defiantely be agianst us. Remmember Shah of Iran, Pinochete, Suharto, Marcos, Noriega, Fujimoro, countless of Latin AMerican leaders, Africa is also another story. USSR didn't have a good record either. Propping government is bad, and will result in the reaction which many of us are not going to enjoy.

Re: Re: war on Iraq?
 

What does Isreal do for the USA that makes them worth the effort to defend?

I think we would be better off without Isreal.

Isreal is the reason all the Arab nations hate us.

Re: Re: Re: war on Iraq?
 

I fully agree with that statement.

Re: Re: Re: Re: war on Iraq?
 

And what exactly is it that makes you believe that?

-Rudey
--The school bell is ringing!

Isreal is a democrocy among Nations that are Run By Despots Who rule by Power! What the hell is Iraq some country that has a damn maniac running it! Hell I cringe when I see these monoic asswholes shoot a weapon in the air! Da the bullit comes down and kills some poor asshwole who is trying to scrape a living! Is that alright or is it bedfaus of the infidels!

Is war good NO, I have been there in this country! It sucks!

Is religion the reason No we all profess a one God!

Is Ireland the religion that keeps them killing, yes killing people! No it is the Polotics of who gets the jobs and that those who live in abject poverity or those that live a subsistnce life!

Is this conversation mute to people who no yes, but to those whom dont know it is opem for debate!

It is too Sad! The Palestenians could have a home land but not blowing people up! Is that sane!

Reach into your heart and ask!

Someone
 

Source: FLAME

Israel and Egypt are the two largest recipients of U.S. aid. For its "participation" in the Gulf War, Egypt was forgiven its indebtedness of $9 billion. Israel pays its bills. It receives $3 billion every year. Of that amount, $1.8 billion is for military aid and $1.2 billion for economic aid. It's fair to ask whether this is a good deal for the American taxpayer.

What are the facts?

The only democratic country in the Middle East. Israel is the only genuinely democratic state in the Middle East. It is committed to freedom and equality, and the rule of law. It embodies the fundamental values that are in tune with those of America and that America has traditionally supported.

Israel's military and political importance in the Middle East and its strategic position stabilize the entire area, including the oil fields of the Persian Gulf. During the Cold War, it was America's indispensable rampart against the inroads and expansionist ambitions of the Soviet Union. It is now a western bulwark against the aggressive intents of Iran, Iraq, and other bellicose nations that threaten the interests of the United States. It is a most reliable partner in the promotion of Western strategic interests and in the stabilization of the Middle East. 25% to 30% of its budget goes for defense, compared to 7% in the U.S. and less than 1% in Japan. Israel has one of the best armies in the world. Its navy and air force are the major deterrent forces in the eastern Mediterranean.

Israel effectively secures NATO's southeastern flank, without having a single American soldier stationed in its territory. Still, the superb military installations, the air and sea lift capabilities, the equipment and food storage capacity, and the trained manpower to maintain and repair sophisticated U.S. equipment are instantly at hand in Israel. It is the only country in the area that makes itself available to the United States, in any contingency.

Only fraction of aid stays in Israel. There is no other country in the Middle East except Israel that can be considered to have a stable government or populace friendly to the United States. There is much danger that any military aid to Arab countries, and military equipment given or sold to them, will suffer the same fate as the untold billions of dollars and priceless military secrets that were lost to our enemies in the debacle of Iran. Is Saudi Arabia more stable? Egypt? Jordan? Kuwait? Judge for yourself!

Only a fraction of the aid given stays in Israel. By far the largest share remains with American defense contractors. Peter McPherson, former administrator of the Agency for International Development, estimated that every billion dollars of aid to Israel creates 60,000 to 70,000 jobs in the United States.

Compared to the $1.8 billion yearly military aid to Israel, the U.S. contributes more than $130 billion(!) every year to the defense of Europe and more than $30 billion to the defense of Japan, Korea, and the Far East. Over 300,000 U.S. troops are stationed with NATO and over 30,000 U.S. troops in the Far East. In contrast, not one single U.S. soldier needs to be stationed and put at risk in Israel. U.S. military analysts estimate that the U.S. would have to spend the equivalent of $150 billion a year in the Middle East to maintain a force equivalent to Israel's.

There are many other benefits that the U.S. military derives from Israel. Israel is the only country that has gained battlefield experience with U.S. weapons. This experience is immediately conveyed to the U.S. Enormous quantities of captured Soviet weapons and defense systems were turned over to the U.S. military for analysis. Israel, in the light of its experience, continually modifies U.S. weapons systems. For instance, Israeli scientists have made over 200 improvements in the F-15 alone and similar improvements, mostly in avionics, in later-generation planes. It would be more in line with reality if military aid to Israel were classified as part of the defense budget, rather than as "aid". Israel is truly America's unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East. Former President Reagan put it well: "The fall of Iran has increased Israel's value as perhaps the only remaining strategic asset in the region on which the United States can fully rely." American aid to Israel is a two-way street. Aid to Israel is America's greatest defense bargain.

-Rudey
--Blah blah

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: war on Iraq?
 

First, what school bell? Are you trying to teach something...I missed that, sorry.


Second, what exactly makes me believe that? I would say that it is primarily based upon what I feel and believe. I have never agreed to the U.S. support for Israel. In all honesty, I don't feel it is the position of the U.S. to be involved in a deeply rooted religious battle.

The main reason I object to U.S. support of Israel would be the 9/11 attack. I feel that Americans were targeted in this attack and many others in the recent past because of our hardline stance on the Israel/Palestine conflict. Agreed, there could be other reasons that indirectly led to some of these terrorist attack. Yet, when I hear objections by Osama Bin Laden, commanding the U.S. to withdraw support from Isreal and to convince Israel to "leave the holy land," I tend to form my primary reason(s).


**edit**
There is a time and a place for everthing and I feel that for the safety and welfare of American soldiers, American citizens and American money, we leave this conflict alone. I feel that sometimes the United States spreads forces and aid out to more places that is needed/is accepted.

Hell, I won't even go into the debate of U.S. aid that was given to various European countries during WWII. France for one hasn't even strated to pay the INTEREST that it owes to the U.S. government. We help countries out and it feels that we get taken advantage of more times than not. And when all else fails, blame the Americans, they were here, they did anything but help.

We could go on and on about how Americans are viewed in certain countries but that could get long and very tiresome.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: war on Iraq?
 

I am not here to attack your feelings and beliefs, and you are free to believe anything you want. However in regards to 9/11, this wasn't something that was planned in the current situation. This was something that took many years of planning - back to when Israel and the PLO agreed to the Oslo Accords.

-Rudey
--Bring me an apple next time.

**Edited to add**
Dude, clean out your mailbox. I was going to send you a pm. Peace.

Ok, cleaned that bad boy all out.

Re: war on Iraq?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hendrixski
[B],...but It's innevetable. ... affraid ... Sadam's...naivity.... Iraque... bosnia,...oppinion

Spellchecker is our friend.......sorry - just a pet peeve of mine.

I do like your argument to the effect of "those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it" - this is something that must be done for the security of the region - Saddam is very adept at working on the opinions of the world - while hiding true ambitions.

A few thoughts from history on this - this is very similar to the position that England found herself in the late 1930's - does anyone recall Chamberlain's visit with Hitler, and "peace in our time?" The true outcome was WWII.

Also, Japan's build up in the 1930's - "we're building refrigerator's while our enemies build bombs"

Aamco commercials - remember these? "You can pay me now, or, you can pay me later" - we're in a quandary that we will sooner or later have to go to war with Iraq - the question is, is the United States going to do this proactively or reactively, and, which path is less costly in American lives?