Perception of sororities nationally
 

The other night I was reading a couple of different threads and ended up on the old Why is Rush So Cut-throat on the Sororities' End at Large Greek Schools? Very interesting thread. What struck me was the ranking of the sororities by tiers at UTexas which was shared in this comment.

As someone who went to a Big Ten school, the entire southern sorority thing is completely foreign to me. I mean I understand it and I don't understand it. But what was so interesting to me is that these girls are DYING to get into a top tier sorority and if you had given me six guesses, I would NEVER have guessed that Pi Beta Phi would have been THE top group. I mean no disrespect to the Pi Phis here. I know it is an excellent organization. It just never would have occurred to me that it would be the most sought after sorority at Texas. Most of the rest of the list I would have easily guessed, although not in the correct order.

Just an observation that our perception of sororities can vary so much based on our collegiate experience, alumna experience and geography. :)

You may get flamed for mentioning Pi Phi directly, but I agree with your thought. I know so many people who think that the reputation of a group on their campus is representative of the sorority as a whole which is often far from the truth.

I would think that this would have lessened somewhat with the internet.

When I was in school I had NO idea of the biggest groups on my campus was one of the smallest nationally, as they were so prominent on campus and in my state in general. Nowadays, I can go online and see exactly who has how many chapters. I can see which chapters have the pretty girls and which have the not as pretty girls.

Then again, you really can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear online.

Well, I wasn't trying to be inflammatory and tried to word it carefully. :)

Maybe this would explain it better... If I met a woman and she told me she was a Pi Phi at Texas I would think... Nice organization, never met a Pi Phi I didn't like, and competitive Greek school. I wouldn't have thought "transcendent epitome of sorority membership in the state of Texas" like many women would who are more acquainted with the various reputations of schools in the south.

Again, so much of our thinking is shaped by our experiences and location. That's just the point I was trying to make. :)

And when I joined Tri Delta, it was not a top group on my campus. I went through informal rush and loved the girls there. That's why I joined. I had no real grasp of its strength nationally until I went to our Centennial Convention. (Yes, I'm dating myself.) But I came from a total non-Greek background so I knew very little other than I loved my sorority on my campus. The excellent national reputation was just an unexpected bonus.

I've heard advisors on campus tell people not to put which social sorority they were in on their resume/applications for things, just to put "social sorority president", because the person reading your application may think "she was an XYZ? they were *insert stereotype* at my school." and it could affect your chances for things, sad as that is.

Couldn't agree more.

This post is really, really bothering me and I am not exactly sure how to articulate this well so I hope this makes sense. My own opinion is that national reputations do not matter when it comes to a chapters campus status. What matters most is what the campus perception of that sorority is. So lets turn the table on what you just said about Pi Phi (who are really strong at Auburn by the way). Because a sorority has a great national reputation (I assume you mean well known) should that mean that girls at every campus should be eager to get in? It doesn't work that way. Every national has weak chapters, some would be considered bottom tier, somewhere in the nation. So before you judge the Pi Phi's, just know that on some campus somewhere your org. is bottom tier and struggling with membership and reputation.

I don't think she ever said that wasn't true (that national reps have nothing to do w/ campus status) and I don't think she was "judging" the Pi Phis. And I don't think she said every Tri Delt chapter is awesome everywhere.

What I think she meant is....put it this way, if you described my chapter to someone at Truman State, or Truman State's ASA chapter to someone at my school, they would look at you, head askance, and say, "You ARE talking about Alpha Sigma Alpha...the ones in red and white...right?"

It's not a matter of "better" or "worse", just DIFFERENT.

Face it, if there was such a thing as "best sorority nationally" there would be a sorority with NO closed chapters. That sorority doesn't exist.

I agree with this.

However, (based on what I've seen on GreekChat) there are definitely some alums still obsessed with tiers and being elite.

What was that line from Animal Farm again? "But some are more equal than others." yeah, that was it. :rolleyes:

From a nonprofit organization standpoint, would anyone argue for or against some NPCs being "run better" than others?

Or more specifically, in private conversations, have you ever heard advisors or other alumnae comparing notes on operations and observing that some people believe one org fuctions at a level higher than another?

Note: I am not asking if anyone has done this themselves, but if they've overheard such conversations. :)

I agree that NPCs all have great reputations nationally. I think that NPHC organizations also have great reputations.

I wouldn't know about some organizations being "run better" but I would imagine a lot of that would have to do with how active and involved the alumnae are, how willing collegiate chapters are to follow policies, and a whole myriad of other factors.

I think the only difference is the "larger" NPCs typically have more resources to draw from - people and donations/money-wise. I don't think that necessarily equates to them being run better, though.

I don't think this is what the OP was saying. I think her comments were actually more along the line of yours. I thought she was saying that, the opinion of NPC group is somehow affected by the campus they are on more than their national reputation.

And I agree that all NPC groups are strong - heck that is one of the benefits of the NPC. This organization gives all of us strength, common goals, etc. But I think it is also fact that some groups are larger(as someone said earlier- more resources like alumna and money) than others and this can contribute to a strong national reputation.

Part of what I got out of the OP's message also was that would be quite difficult to quantify which are the strongest NPCs nationally, because most people's perspective is skewed by the regional image. Someone in CA might think the strongest NPC nationally is completely different than what someone in TX might think.

Thus it's not practical to think in terms of "national strength", because very few people can distance themselves enough from their regional perspective to make an accurate assessment.

Yes. And it would be totally inappropriate for me to judge another chapter or sorority when my own chapter has closed (which I discussed at length in another thread I started a long time ago). And I mentioned in this discussion that it was not a "top house" on campus so I'm hardly looking down my nose at others from my own perceived elite status.

My point was that when reading these rush stories about how some women (and in some cases, their mothers) are dead set on getting into a particular sorority on a particular campus, it varies so much from campus to campus as to which sorority is "the one" that the women are gunning for. Reading those sorority descriptions from that Texas magazine was just really fascinating for a Yankee with no southern sorority experience.

The same thing could be said about sororities with which I have no experience. There are a number of NPC sororities with which I don't think I've ever had any interaction. They weren't at my own campus and I've never met anyone from them in real life. So those too are groups that wouldn't automatically come to mind. I'm much more apt to think of the chapters on my own campus.

So, to go back to my original point... The way we think about things is greatly influenced by our collegiate experience, our alumna experience and our geography. :)

Amen, NPC sista!

I knew I wasn't articulating my thoughts well. I'll try again...the part that bothered me was that the OP was so shocked about Pi Phi being on top but yet she was stated that she could have easily guessed the rest. Really? Out of how many NPC sororities...26? I always thought of it as a given that everyone knows that chapters are not equal from campus to campus, region to region...so why the surprise at Pi Phi and yet the remaining chapters were easy to guess? I'm not affiliated with Pi Phi but just the fact that it was called out by name along with the statement 'I could have easily guessed the rest' sounds a bit like a slam to me.

I'm sorry if it sounded like a slam. It certainly wasn't meant that way, but I can see how some might take it that way. To be honest, one of the other six on the list was also a surprise to me, but I didn't mention them by name.

My apologies to anyone who was offended by what I said.

I've been a registered member here a long time and comment very rarely. I think I'll just go back to lurking. :)

I took her comments to mean that she was able to easily guess the others (besides Pi Phi) because she has had some exposure to the others and not so much with Pi Phi...
And in making those comments, she actually backs up her observations about campus culture influencing someone's opinion of a particular NPC group.

I really think people need to take comments a bit (more) lightly on GC. I don't think TriDeltaSallie meant any harm.

She was just sharing some thoughts and possibly looking for feedback/opinions.

I have been flamed on GC recently for being inquisitive and it was for the very reason that I have not been exposed to all sororities/fraternities in my area and I wanted to know how they were in various regions/states etc. I was just looking for perceptions and general chat - not drama.

Yes, it would be nice if they could "...live constantly above snobbery..."

Wow.

I attempt to keep my nose out of these discussions (would much rather lurk!!) but I do have to agree with those brave people who have pointed out that the main discussion here is once again the vast regional differences we all experience. I love talking to my sisters from the South, mostly because I am constantly left with my mouth agape while they tell stories about Recruitment, Southern style. Then in return, they are shocked at my extremely no frills, low quota, small liberal arts college deferred recruitment. That is one of the true gifts of belonging to a national organization--my sisters have had a variety of experiences that we love to share as we work to make our sisterhood even stronger.

I know that we are not the only organization blessed in this way.

Take it with a grain of salt. This is what message boards are all about, stating and refuting opinions. I don't consider stating an opinion to be a personal attack or to be flaming. And I don't believe that Wareagle actually said anything snarky, just stated an opinion and you clarified your statement. Please keep posting but understand that people may not agree with you and may say so in no uncertain terms, and it certainly keeps things dynamic around here!

I'm pretty sure that comment was not directed at you, Cutie Hootie. ;)

The whole trouble with tiers is that often people take them to reflect on an organization as a whole- and react accordingly.

Any given chapter's reptuation will, I believe, be far more reflective of that specific campus and active members than of the GLO nationally.

The tiers discussion comes up most with large southern public universities for two reasons,

1. At those schools you have a high concentration of people who come from that state, and so it is natural that the regional social "pecking order" will flow into the university's social life.

2. In the South moreso than in other regions- being Greek has, for many people, very important social meaning. In practice, people who let it have a major impact on who they interact with for life have a problem- but the fact remains it is important that you "were there."

I have attended many weddings where ladies were introduced to me with, "This is _____, she was a __fill in the GLO__ at ___ fill in the school." This comes first- even before you find out in conversation that the lady in question is a highly successful neurosurgeon (yes I am laughing thinking about a specific introduction a few years ago as I write this.)

The point is, that affiliation says a great deal about a person right away. It does not tell you if they are a good person. It does not tell you if they are successful in life. It does not tell you that they are better than anyone else. But it does give you quite a bit of background in one simple sentence.

Naturally this is a strange concept to most people. I think country clubs are foreign concepts too for most people- or at least when discussing the many people who join country clubs and don't ever play golf.

Being a part of any GLO a person likes is a valuable experience. And this is why the tiers discussion gets so problematic on a site like GC. Tiers do matter, but only in the very specific context of the college in question- and even then so much depends on whether a person just naturally ended up in a top tier chapter and made a great life experience of it, or clings to it as a crutch for low self esteem or a lack of success for the rest of their lives.

Now than I am nearly 10 years out of school I have seen many high school and college classmates who were "top tier" fall flat on their faces in the real world. And many who were not so sociable in college have done well.

Sure, most people who went to 1st or 2nd tier GLOs have been successful because they were born to successful parents and were raised to be productive citizens. And this is reflected in chapter stats. Non-Greeks at UT do not like the Greeks, but the GPAs of the top tier chapters- fraternity and sorority- are incredibly high. These are talented and motivated people.

But that said, top tier is not a predictor of anything- nor does it confer some magical social status. A person's success and social status comes from far earlier influences (i.e. their ancestry) and- more importantly- what they do with their own lives after college.

In short- I am agreeing with you and taking 2 pages to do it in detail :)

Thank you! :)

There were three very clear (and at times somewhat hostile) tiers at my school - to the point where women from different tiers would cross the road so they didn't have to pass by each other. But it is interesting because even though my own chapter would have been considered bottom tier, we had many wonderful women in our chapter who were not in any way hindered by being in a "lesser" chapter. In fact, I think it was a distinct advantage in some ways.

My second year in the house we had the Greek Pledge of the Year.
My third year in the house we had the Panhel President and a sister on Homecoming Court.
My fourth year in the house we had a finalist for Greek Woman of the Year and one of the University Outstanding Seniors.
We had Greek Week Co-Chairs I believe every year I was there and usually more than one each year.

Bottom tier does not mean inferior members. It just often means women who found what they were looking for somewhere else.

So if someone wants to look down on me because I was a low tier sorority member, that's their prerogative. However, I was the woman who was the finalist for Greek Woman of the Year and one of the University Outstanding Seniors. And I honestly don't think I would have personally won those honors if I had been in a top tier house. I had far more opportunities in a bottom tier chapter that was perfectly suited for me.

All that being said... and I realize I'm going way out on a limb here... If someone offered a million dollars to guess the top 6 groups on a campus, how many people would randomly pick 6 of the 26 groups? No one would. Every one of us would draw on our experiences and knowledge of the groups, the region the school was in, the strength of different groups by state and/or region, etc. to try to guess it accurately. Those who have a lot more knowledge about all 26 of the groups would have a distinct advantage in trying to guess as opposed to those of us who may only be marginally familiar with 8 or 15 or 20 of them or only have limited regional experience. I don't think that having ideas about different groups and their perceived strength both locally and nationally makes someone un-Panhellenic.

Now running for cover... :)

Wow never saw that comment before and I actually find it quite offensive, although its funny how arrows and angels states "Pi Phis don't have to flaunt what they've got. When you've got everything-money, a good name, good looks, and status-what's the point?"
Then why is it necessary to write out who is what tier and why they make that tier. If you have that status then you'd think everyone would know and you wouldn't need to put it out there. But what do I know I'm just a damn Yankee/midwest country girl.


Nothing against the Pi Phis here you could be a great group of girls at UT for all I know.

FWIW, those comments were copied from some dumb article, not necessary arrows and angels' opinion. Totally agree with the "if you're so top tier, you don't need to point it out" sentiment, though.

Whoa. From my experience, no one in the "top tier" sororities even thinks about things like that. Things just are what they are. There aren't legions of Regina Georges running around talking about how "bottom tier" other people are. Seriously, the fascination seems to come from the outside, and from the inside it isn't an issue at all.

I wish I could agree with your experiences, but "top tier" members loved to put it out there that they were "top tier". (at least where I came from) Congratulations to them, but to have to "put it out there" was kind of sad/major turn off. It really brought them down, IMO. Quite possibly, that may have be their immaturity/insecurity oozing out.

yes, the article was found in "Texas monthly" years and years ago and was written tongue in cheek, much like the "southern belle primer"-there is probably some truth in what was written, but was meant in jest.

Totally agree with the comment that this is a "tongue in cheek" article that is spoofing sorority tiers at Texas. I would suggest that you also read "The Southern Belle Primer or Princess Margaret will Never be a Kappa Kappa Gamma" for further such reading. These are meant to poke fun at southern life, etc.

And, unless I am mistaken, those of us from the south on GC are able to recognize a stereotyped, over-generalized, one dimensional version of ourselves and laugh not take offense.

But let's not get into a "southern vs northern" Greek discussion, please.

I don't think discussing national sororities' regional reputations is any different than discussing a national company who may or may not do business in your region. i.e Bank of America, Dillard's Dept Store, etc.

I've been thinking about this thread since I read it last night.

Growing up, I was brought up to believe that XYZ sorority was the end-all and be-all of sororities, both on the local and national level. My mom was not an XYZ, but my grandmother and great-grandmother were (I am not an XYZ), but even mom gushed over XYZ. Both at schools in my hometown and at my alma mater, the XYZ chapter was "top tier." I expected nothing less than for XYZ to be "top tier" at each and every school where they had a chapter.

Imagine my surprise a few years ago when I found out that there had been an XYZ chapter near to where I live now but it had closed down! How could this happen? They were XYZ!!! It made me realize that just because a chapter is strong at some schools, that does not mean all chapters are as strong as others. It really opened my eyes.

Before this, every time I saw an XYZ, I believed they were extra-special in some way, just because they were XYZ (and the XYZs I know are indeed special ladies, but that is not the point I am trying to make here). Now I know that XYZ has chapters that are A-1 at some schools, just as the "bottom tier" (oh, but do I hate that term!) sorority at my alma mater is A-1 somewhere else.

I fully understood that it was meant as humor, but part of all good humor is the element of truth. And in the flow of the entire multi-page discussion, it was not only meant as humorous but that there was a significant amount of truth to it. At least that was the way I read it.

As far as the north/south thing... I find southern rush fascinating. I look forward to reading the recruitment stories each year. And a significant part of what is discussed here is more southern-related. So this thread was in no way a me vs. them thread. I truly find the whole thing very fascinating. :)

What I was quoting was specifically talking about MY campus. Therefore, my comment was talking about MY campus and MY experience there. I have no idea what happens elsewhere. The Texas Monthly quote was NOT about "Baci U." I'm sorry your experience has been different elsewhere.

And here's food for thought - with the exception of some moribund southern schools, the tiers are not inflexible. It is possible for a chapter that was once "bottom tier" to turn it around- I've seen it happen. It's also possible for the end all, be all chapter to take a dive and see its standing fall. At my alma mater a chapter which struggled during my time there has now blossomed and is highly regarded - and one of the "top tier" chapters is now struggling.

What NPC members should be working for is not only their chapters to do well, but for campuses to reach a point where ALL the chapters are solid. I don't know that collegians necessarily get that - heck, I know alumnae who don't "get it". But a campus where all the chapters are solid - where there are a variety of sisterhoods in which pnms can find a home - is going to be the most beneficial for Greeks as a whole. All the NPC member GLOs have incredible histories, noble ideals, worthwhile philanthropies, innovative programming, leadership training, and close sisterhoods. The more you get to know members from various groups the more you realize that we all have a great deal in common. If we could dispense with negative competition - ( Not the "good" type - competition can be positive and healthy) - and really, really come together, I think we would be unstoppable.

AND THAT is why I hate the discussion of tiers on individual campuses. It allows some NPC members to feel that they are somehow superior to others, which draws their focus from the good of the NPC groups as a whole. It also can force some NPC members to feel that they are somehow inferior - when the fact is that if you are a member of ANY NPC group you should take pride in that fact. It reinforces the negative stereotypes some non-Greeks have about us, and does not in any way, shape or form support the aims and aspirations our founders had in mind when they founded our GLOs.

Bravo...one size does not fit all. Top Tier may be hell on earth for some women. I never cared what tier (if you can have tiers in a 4 chapter system) my chapter was, only that the group of women there were normal women with whom I could relate. (Sorry if I misused "whom"...that is one grammar pet peeve I've never bothered to master!)

Have you seen some of the posts on GC? For some women, sorority is LIFE.