Is GDI better than not getting your top choice?
 

I am curious about something. Almost every GCer gives PNMs the good advice to "have an open mind" etc. Many threads about very competitive greek schools, however, document that sometimes girls will drop out of recruitment after being dropped by one or two houses that they wanted, even if they had several good options left. (This is not a question about having only your last choice remaining.)

My question is this: It seems odd that girls for whom greek membership is so important, at schools where greek membership is so important, would rather belong to no group than to the right group. Are some of you familiar with these situations, and do these girls regret their decisions later in their college careers? Since most highly-sought-after houses probably don't do COB or bid many sophmores, I assume that many of the girls that drop never pledge a house. Thanks.

It does seem odd on the face of it, but keep in mind too that just being Greek at a competitive school is not enough for many. There was another thread here recently where someone referenced the "top six" sororities at Texas. In point of fact, from a social tier standpoint, there is a "top three" within that top six. Same goes for the fraternities- there is a top five, but also the great triumverate within that top five.

And it does not stop there- the best fraternity men from all chapters might get to be a Texas Cowboy or a Silver Spur. Typically 2 spots per chapter (some chapters anyway- not all are represented) are available each semester.

And then of course there are officerships within fraternities and sororities, plus- at some campuses- IFC roles are important as are Greek-wide philanthropy committee roles like Dance Marathon.

The point is, there is always another door- always another "level" of existence. And too often the importance- or even the existence- of such levels is more in the mind of the individual than in the reality of Greek life at large.

Sororities recruit members who they feel will fit in socially, who will be good housemates and who they feel will love and respect the sorority and the privacy of ritual. Sure some info leaks out, but the fact that accurate ritual details still remain largely private after 100+ years and in this internet age are a testament to the fact that sororities make good decisions when recruiting members.

These ladies know what they are doing. During formal rush, they do not have the time to fully meet and know EVERY PNM- but neither do the PNMs. So the experience of the active members is what gives them the edge in making a better decision.

I think if a PNM comes into preference and REALLY knows that she just wants her top choice, then she should put her money where her mouth is and suicide on her pref card. I have known ladies who did this and mismatched and were okay with it. And of course many do get the bid and all is good.

In terms of taking a bid from a place a person did not want originally- the success of that, in my experience, depends on the person's attitude. Those who have an open mind and appreciate the fact they are the newcomers to a complicated and well-planned process seem to find out things worked out well. Those who just decided any bid was better than none are typically unhappy since they had unrealistic expectations.

At competitive campuses, unrealistic expectations are born of the belief that belonging to a certain sorority can- in and of itself- bring one up socially in the world. Any sorority or fraternity offers a tremendous personal experience for enthusiastic members who embrace these organizations for what they are- a chance to find comraderie at that point in life when we leave home and abandon our comfort zone to go out into the great wide world for the first time.

Those who seek to join "top groups" for more selfish and social-climbing reasons have the wrong idea. And they learn the hard way because they fail to appreciate that sororities populated by socially prominent members are experts at weeding out the pretenders who want to belong for the wrong reasons.

At the end of the day, it is about being part of something larger than yourself and an organization that offers leadership opportunities that go beyond what your average GDI can ever experience.

The active members of a sorority are the stewards of that gift- and they do not grant access to it lightly. And PNMs should not treat it lightly either.

As far as I am concerned, any PNM should be grateful for and pursue any invitation they receive in the later rounds of rush. And if they REALLY don't like how it goes, they should drop that chapter when they pref- even if it means they suicide or drop altogether. Because if they cannot get over not getting what they want, settling for second best means they might be keeping a serious and eager rushee off the list by preffing a place they do not really want to be and bumping a great potential member down the list.

Great post EE-BO. Cosign on all of that.

An oldie but a goodie:

"You'll end up where you were meant to"....

Excellent post as usual EE-BO. One of the things I have been contemplating recently is why there seems to be a disproportionate number of unhappy recruitment endings on Greekchat. I think it gives the wrong impression that it happens more frequently than it does IRL. I have come to the conclusion that many of the women coming here prior to recruitment probably lack the understanding of the Greek system that many others already have, so they may not be quite as prepared for a successful recruitment. And a lot of times, especially at competitive schools, there really is no way to completely prepare when you're starting from scratch and using things like the internet for advice, getting all your recs from panhellenic alumna who do not personally know you, going into recruitment without knowing any chapter members etc. And of course there are the large number of women and helis who come here afterward to vent and question the process. I mean how many women come here for the first time looking for recruitment related information after a successful rush? It's always going to be the ones who are disappointed. So I think here at Greekchat we see an overabundance of sad stories instead of all the victories out there, and the casual reader could get the wrong impression that an overly large number of recruitments go very very wrong.

I had thought about that, but we still get A LOT of people who drop out as opposed to actually getting released by all chapters on their campus.

Well, I would consider that just another one of the unhappy recruitment scenarios.

Well said.

Young women who are serious candidates for socially prominent chapters at competitive campuses- don't need Greek Chat to gain access. Those candidates come into the process with a background and family/friend support with a knowledge base of what is needed.

This does not mean GC has no value- it certainly does. But the fact is that a lot of the sob stories and heli-mom nightmares involve top chapters and competitive campuses, and those posters- as a general rule- will never understand why they or their daughter never had a chance in the first place.

95% of the time, I think GC can be a helpful resource for PNMs. That other 5% of the time are those who are most likely to come back with a slam thread expressing anger- and all too often it happened at a competitive campus where someone was hoping to not join a sisterhood but instead use Greek letters to make up for other social inadequacies.

Point being, I see the somewhat high rate of negative outcomes here are based on the fact we get overloaded with those who are getting in over their heads for the wrong reasons. But thankfully there are many happy tales to overcome that in the big picture.

This is so true. I find that this was the case even at the non-competitive school I went to.

The girls who ended up having the best experiences and being happy in the end were those who didn't set out only wanting Most Popular. They're the ones who just want to be in a sorority that wants them and they feel comfortable with.

In addition, I think that girls would come out of recruitment having had a better experience if they could get this idea through their heads:

If you did not get invited to join your top choice, they didn't want you. But your 2nd/3rd choice that you got a bid from obviously did. So you should give them a chance, as opposed to getting upset over a group that wasn't interested enough in you to rank you high. Why not be with the girls that wanted to have you?

Harsh? Yep. But it is also true.

I am afraid this comment really sounded elitist to me - was it meant to? Are you saying that someone without the good old girl network never has a chance at a top sorority on a competitive campus? Or was the qualifier - "as a general rule" - meant to refer not to the understanding of the posters but to the general chances of the pnm?

It seems to me that ignoring pnms without the steeped in tradition background would exclude many young women who could positively enhance and improve the sorority. Just my opinion...

Chapters have autonomy in selecting their members. If they want a certain background and want to ignore other PNMs, that's their prerogative. No one ever said recruitment was fair.

But many sorority members do object (and rightly so) to being labeled elitist and snobs.

There's a big difference between being selective and being elitist snobs.

Hi lawgal,

My apologies- I was not meaning to sound elitist at all. My point was that at a very competitive school there are a LOT of PNMs who come into rush having carefully researched and planned their recruitment- often years in advance if their mothers were Greek at competitive schools and know what it takes.

So when someone comes here ill-prepared at the last minute and is talking not only about wanting to rush at a competitive campus, but also about only being interested in a certain group of chapters (or perhaps even just one), they have no idea that the ship has sailed. Maybe they can get all those piles of recs etc. done in the 1-4 weeks prior to rush, but odds are they are still going to be far behind where they would have been with proper planning.

And the fact they come into the process so late and have not done basic planning/research makes their desire to rush and only go to X, Y or Z sorority all the more insulting in a way- even though they may not intend it that way.

The end result is someone who came into the process without giving it proper respect by trusting it and preparing for it, had unrealistic or misguided expectations and then hates and resents it when they don't get what they want.

I hope my posts on this topic will not shame or degrade anyone- but rather challenge future PNMs to get ready earlier and put a little faith in the process and in the chapters.

Not elitist, simply realistic. I don't believe she or anyone else would say PNMs are being ignored. But hard decisions do have to be made, especially on a super competitive campus and especially for a chapter that is considered a "top tier". Practically every PNM wants in that chapter and not everyone can be taken.

(Clarification: The following is not directed at Lawgal or her comment. Simply a general statement/opinion.)

It frustrates and at times even angers me when I read PNMs or moms or others continually ask "Why did I/she get cut? 4.0 GPA, great resume, several Recs, had great conversations, ... I thought they loved me/her!!!" I'm sorry but decisions have to be made and it happens. The chapter members aren't purposely trying to be mean. Nor is a member lying if she says she really likes a PNM. They are not being fake when they are excited to see PNMs return to the next round, only to cut her that night.

Who here has ever interviewed for a highly sought after job or even an entry level job at a large corporation where there were 100's if not 1,000's of candidates? You may be qualified, have a sterling resume, glowing letters of recommendations and what you considered a great interview. The company hires someone else and you have no idea why you weren't selected. In your mind you were just as qualified as who they hired.

Is that company elitist for choosing another candidate they felt would fit better in their corporate environment? Someone they thought had just a bit shinier of a resume? Someone whose personal recommendation came from a highly respected employee within the company whom they know and trust? Or any other recruitment equivalent reason. Is the company mean, fake or lied to you when you thought you had a great interview? Of course not. They simply chose another candidate. It's nothing personal. Most people can accept that when it comes to a job, but they can't look at it this objectively when it comes to a competitive sorority Recruitment.

EE-BO

Your clarification really did help and I also appreciate your comments, not only on this thread but also on others. I also co-sign your comments about research and preparation because they apply in life after college as well. I have felt insulted in the legal system when parties have appeared before me and haven't bothered to prepare. Their ultimate unfavorable outcome is often a result of lack of preparation.

***golf clap***

EE-BO, or should I say OB1, very well put.

Zellini absolutely fantastic points on the job interview comparison.

I do believe some folks do lose perspective being blinded by a somewhat shallow view of the greek system rather than taking in the entire experience and being open to various social networks. After all, what a better preparation for "real life". Success and disappointment comes in all facets of life and that is something everyone must face. It's is how you deal with it that is important.

I think this thread should have a sticky on it!

I think what frustrates me the most is that PNMs fail to take into account that once they are in, say, their #2 or #3 choice, THEY make a difference and shape the future of that chapter. A new member class can turn a chapter around like that! I don't know why so many fail to see this potential when rushing. A smaller sorority may give a New Member MORE opportunity to hold office and really do something positive.

This is why IMO it is so important to keep an open mind. Membership is truly what you make of it!

(/ok, now I am off of my soap box/) ;)

Yes, GDI is better than not getting the top choice.

My daughter friend got cut from her top choices last year primarly due to grades. She let people talk her into dropping out of the three that did send her a pref invite. My daughter told her to stay. Needless to say she would be happier now being anyone one of the three instead of nothing. She knows this and is going through rush again and will be Happy in Any group now. She just wants to be apart of the dance.

Excellent analogy, Zillini.

My though has always been this: Sorority recruitment is, in many ways, a snapshot of many other processes that we face in life. When large numbers of people must be whittled into smaller groups, there are processes that are generally followed.

Consider similarities to drafts in the military and in professional athletics. In both cases, people are poised to be unhappy, satisfied, or elated with their individual results. Were young men disappointed when they were selected to go to war (years ago)? Obviously in this case, the winners were those where not selected. And how about drafts in professional sports? Are athletes disappointed when they are not selected for their dream team? For any team? Of course.

Rejection is tough, yet ever present.

EE-BO's post was dead-on! I agree with everything said.

But in response to the OP, I must tell you that in competitive systems, many feel that GDI is better than not getting a top house. Sad, but true - and primarily for the reasons EE-BO stated regarding tradition. In systems where the mom has known for years that the daughter will go through recruitment, built the resume, developed the contacts for recs, etc, those women are well aware of the reputations of those houses. So, in their minds, and ultimately in their daughters' minds, it is one of the top houses or nothing at all. No one entrenched in those systems really believes that they will end up with a lower tier house if they prepare well enough, and see anything less as a failure. It is a real shame.

I do not agree with this line of thinking. Going Greek is what it is all about - a sisterhood, a lifetime of XYZ and all that it brings. This is one of the things I like about GC: the overall message of "go greek" ( not, "go upper tier or go home")supported by lots of stories to back up that premise.

Wow. Lots of discussion which has been very enlightening. I want to chime in on the subtheme of competitive selection, but don't have time before work.

These two posts (and the one by KSUViolet) hit close to what my original question was asking. Kind of in followup, if a girl "fails" at rush and drops out, what is her college experience like? If she has grown up being groomed to be greek, doesn't she feel absolutely lost in the college setting? For that matter, she has also forfeited alumni status/networks/activities for the rest of her life! (Again, this is a discussion about girls that have chosen to drop out with options left.) After reading this thread about the University of Texas:

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...t=32105&page=4

it sounds like all UT houses are selective and few if any would have a "stigma" attached to them, although they all don't have cachet that some desire.

Certainly many--no most--collegians are not greek and have a great college experience with friend and parties and social networks etc. etc. I just wonder how successfully a girl, steeped in the expectation of being greek, transitions into a GDI college experience.

It's all in the attitude of the PNM. If she has completely written off chapters she feels are beneath her, she wouldn't be doing them any favors by joining, and therefore, GDI is better for her than chapters she has written off.

If a PNM is open to what a sorority really is about and is honest with herself, she might find her home in an unexpected place. It's happened before and will happen again.

I think it just depends on the situation. My situation was unique. I was a 22 year old junior transfer coming through recruitment. I went in to recruitment without an intent to really go greek. i went through to meet people at a school I didnt know anyone at. I maximized all of my options throughout recruitment and opinions on chapters changed each day. By Preference I did have a full schedule but I knew I wanted Theta and Theta only and I suicided (though I wouldnt recommend that to most PNMs). By the end of the round I knew if I wasnt Theta then I didnt want to be greek and I was prepared that chances were high I wouldnt receive a bid by suiciding. Lucky for me it worked out, but that's not the case with most who suicide or dont maximize their options throughout recruitment.

So it depends on the person, campus, etc.

This is such a tough question to answer so broadly. (much credit to those who have posted before me)

I really agree with ThetaPrincess24. So many factors are involved here and the answer will vary time and time again.

I could only answer this based on my experiences and again, that would not help you.
Each avenue (Greek or GDI) can be amazing and it just depends on the person.

Why do chapters have bid MATCHING?

Because the entire point of recruitment is to find where you want to be, and to have the chapters find the people they want.

The last thing that you want is to be somewhere where the sisters don't like or feel comfortable with you. Why would you want to spend the next 4 years in that environment simply to wear the "best" letters?

Coming from a school that only does COB, sometimes I think it's even harder to realize that you have to explore all of your options, because every PNM has the ability to only look at one chapter if they so chose.

And although it hasn't happened often since I've been a sister, I've seen girls not receive bids (after only having come to our recruitment parties), and then they're devastated when they don't. And it's SOOO hard from our side. Especially in the COB system we have. We have open events, and girls are able to come to any recruitment party that we have. But when they only come to ours, they limit their options. And it's funny, because if they really wanted, they could attend parties for all three sororities, receive bids for all three, and then decide which one they want to sign and accept. But some people are so focused on one group that they miss the big picture.

I joined the smallest chapter on my campus, and the one that, at the time, was the least prominent, in terms of being well-known. I realized that I, along with a few others, could be the positive change the chapter needed, especially in terms of numbers. And I'm now their Recruitment Advisor, and the chapter has had a record number of PNMs attend recruitment events this semester.

Leading up to my receiving a bid, I had talked to sisters from all three chapters for quite some time before I was a new member. I loved all of the girls that I talked to. But sisters from one chapter who were in a class with me just talked to me and would mention the sorority... one or two girls from another chapter (one of which was my RA) asked me to go to recruitment events... and one member from another chapter called me on the night of a recruitment event, asked me if I wanted to go, and offered to walk to my dorm to get me so that I didn't have to walk into the recruitment party by myself.

Which chapter do you think I joined?

In addition to loving the girls of this group, I realized they really wanted me to be part of their sisterhood.

And while this kind of thing obviously would only happen with informal recruitment, from what I can tell, during formal, girls really look way too deeply into the phrase, "I hope to see you tomorrow," and the like. They take one positive thing and think, "I don't even have to try with these other orgs." They think that their future is mapped out because they had one good conversation with one girl who really liked them. And while it's exciting, they shouldn't simply base their decisions upon something so minuscule in the scheme of competitive sorority recruitment.

As for how girls react after not receiving a bid to where they originally wanted to be... that depends on the person. Some people just walk away from the experience and figure that Greek life isn't for them. Some people resent the chapter that turned them away, and/or they resent all Greeks in general. Some people realize their mistakes and they try again.

The whole point of Greek life is to make friends (within all of the chapters), to serve your campus and community in a positive way, and to find where you belong... not where you think you should be based on a house, a reputation, or which colors you think are the prettiest.

I joined through "informal" (or COB) recruitment, and only went to AGD because I wasn't sure if greek life was for me and I didn't want to overwhelm myself with girls all over the place.

I really wish I had gone to all the houses. Don't get me wrong - I love my organization and everything about it, and joining was one of the best decisions in my life. But I'd also like to say that as I became more active in the panhellenic community, particularly by acting as a recruitment counselor as a junior and senior and sitting on the exec board of panhellenic - the women in every chapter on my campus were quality women with whom I'm sure I would have been comfortable had I joined any organization on campus.

I don't regret joining AGD, in fact I believe that given the opportunity to go through all the chapters I think I still would have joined AGD - but I also feel like I should have taken the chance to get to know the women in other chapters, and the PNMs for other chapters - it's always nice to have extra support besides your own new member class when you're going through the crazy busy process of a new member period.

I'm one of the lucky ones that can legitimately say that two of my best friends are my sisters from my own chapter, and two more are sisters from different chapters.

She most likely transfers to another school where Greek life isn't such a priority and does one of 2 things:

1) Pledges the sorority that was prestigious at her old school and spends the rest of her life trying to "pass." "I was a KKG at UT!" (She doesn't mention that it was UT - Tinier Campus.)

2) Gets involved in other things on campus and realizes Greek life really ISN'T the be all and end all.

I think it also has a lot to do with how her parents handle it - whether they support her or if they helimom her and make her feel like it's all her fault.

That is exactly bang on. On GC, we generally don't hear from girls who got into the "top houses" at UF, Ole Miss etc. That is because these girls are well prepared and they know what they are doing. They are not soliciting random advice from a bunch of strangers on Greek Chat. They've rushed, got the house they wanted and are now out enjoying themselves.

Occasionally we hear from PNMs who get into "top chapters" at competitive schools, but they are usually just sharing their story, rather than soliciting advice.

I know two women who dropped out of the recruitment process after preference but before bid day.

The first, I''ll call her Jane, said she enjoy the recruitment process and made a lot of friends along the way. However, when it came time to make a decision, she realized that while she met a lot of nice women during the rush process, she didnt want to live with most of them. She said it would be difficult to consider most of these women as friends let alone as sisters. She said she is still friends with the women she met during rush.

The second woman, I will call her Sally, also withdrew before bid day. She said that there houses that she did it off with, however, she wasn't invited back. As for the houses that she did receive invitations, she said that she didn't feel any connection, a feeling that continued through preference round. When it came time to submit her bid card, she decided not to continue.

Neither woman said they regretted their decision, although both said that they wished that their campus was not so dominated by Greek Life. Jane helped organize a special interest group in the dorms and found an interesting on campus job. Sally got accepted into a demanding honors program.

Jane and Sally said that maybe on different campuses under different circumstances they might have joined a sorority.

I can't speak for other campuses, but I think at my school that your sorority experience is what you make of it. I see no point in dropping out in the middle when you've had only the briefest impressions of the sororities. And I will agree-- every girl I've known that took that bid to her #2 or #3 choice never ended up regretting it-- even if they were upset at not getting their #1 at the time ... wheras the girls I know who dropped out still regret it years later-- and I'm talking about those who have graduated and have moved past the Greek scene of college.

And I really think that I would've been happy to be a member at any of the UCF chapters. I think 99% of your sorority experience comes down to your attitude. If you're determined to be miserable with your chapter, you're going to hate it.

I agree with points made in posts in this thread, especially:

EE-BO: My point was that at a very competitive school there are a LOT of PNMs who come into rush having carefully researched and planned their recruitment- often years in advance if their mothers were Greek at competitive schools and know what it takes.

So when someone comes here ill-prepared at the last minute and is talking not only about wanting to rush at a competitive campus, but also about only being interested in a certain group of chapters (or perhaps even just one), they have no idea that the ship has sailed. Maybe they can get all those piles of recs etc. done in the 1-4 weeks prior to rush, but odds are they are still going to be far behind where they would have been with proper planning.
. . .

The end result is someone who came into the process without giving it proper respect by trusting it and preparing for it, had unrealistic or misguided expectations and then hates and resents it when they don't get what they want.

I hope my posts on this topic will . . . challenge future PNMs to get ready earlier and put a little faith in the process and in the chapters.


CutiePie2000: That is exactly bang on. On GC, we generally don't hear from girls who got into the "top houses" at UF, Ole Miss etc. That is because these girls are well prepared and they know what they are doing. They are not soliciting random advice from a bunch of strangers on Greek Chat. . . .

LadyLonghorn: Excellent post as usual EE-BO. One of the things I have been contemplating recently is why there seems to be a disproportionate number of unhappy recruitment endings on Greekchat. .....I have come to the conclusion that many of the women coming here prior to recruitment probably lack the understanding of the Greek system that many others already have, so they may not be quite as prepared for a successful recruitment.


So – maybe after the excitement about fall recruitment and fall colonizations has died down a bit, I would encourage GC “regulars” and “experts” to post new or updated information that’s pretty much targeted toward the young women who are “clueless,” “new to it all,” “first in family to consider Greek life.”

In the past I’ve posted a handful of notices about Area Alumnae Panhellenic information (and recommendation – getting) sessions, trying to emphasize that such things can help the “unprepared.”

But the few things I've posted aren't even the tip of the iceberg compared to what a lot of well-prepared young women -- and yes, their parents -- go into recruitment knowing. There's a lot more knowledge that probably could be shared with PNMs. Certainly other GCers can give much more positive and useful info that might help a lot of great young women get up to speed about what to expect, and what they need to do.