Election 2008
 

The McCain/Palin thread was getting away from the topic of Palin as the VP Candidate for the GOP so under the suggestion of another user, I have started a new thread for us to discuss anything & everything about this upcoming election.

Fire away!

McCain, Today's Jobs & Community Colleges
 

Last night, my boyfriend and I watched McCain's speech together. It was an OK speech - I'm getting annoyed with the 9/11 references and so much of his argument revolving around his time as a POW about 40 years ago, but it was still OK. I don't dislike McCain...I just like Obama more. My boyfriend, on the other hand, has admired McCain for years and traditionally votes straight Republican ticket.

So we were watching the speech, feeling kinda "Meh" about it, until it got to this part:

After hearing that, the two of us wanted to throw something heavy at him. These are the same words George Bush said back in 2002 or 2003, and he was off base then and now McCain is off base. It was a huge disappointment to us to hear that McCain is so out of touch with the American worker.

I was laid off from my first job out of college in 2001, then again from a nonprofit in 2002. I graduated from a Tier 1 university, had big student loans to prove it, and yet I couldn't get a professional job to pay the bills...it seemed like no one I knew could. At that time, not even the temp agencies had jobs to offer. I remember coming home one night after spending some time at the "work source" office and turning on the State of the Union address to hear George Bush tell America that people like me needed to go to community college to learn the skills necessary for today's jobs. And I remember the tremendous sinking feeling I had of realizing that he truly did not understand what was really going on in this country...and that he didn't even know people like me existed.

If George Bush and John McCain would go into unemployment offices around the country, they would learn a lot. I have to think that they haven't done this, because if they had, they would know that unemployment offices today are filled with many white collar, educated professionals in addition to the factory workers that I think they're thinking of. In 2002, when I was called in randomly to sit through a "training" at the unemployment office, the office was filled with professionals with bachelor's degrees, MBAs and, yes, PhDs! The instructors were ashamed to be "instructing" people who just days or weeks before had been at the top of their ladders to look into community college classes. They knew that their offices had nothing to support us.

At the same time, my boyfriend, who has an engineering degree from Michigan and an MBA in Finance from a good school, had been unemployed for several months. He was laid off and replaced by engineering contractors from Russia, here on work visas. He was on unemployment for a while, but then it ran out, and President Bush decided not to expand federal unemployment benefits. He took a job in another field, and moved around the country trying to get back into engineering. A few years ago, he finally got his dream job at Boeing...nearly 15 years after he graduated with his aerospace engineering degree.

So I would like to ask John McCain, What are these jobs that haven't and won't disappear? Manufactering is already gone, and without major tax penalties to corporations they won't be coming back. And now science and technology jobs are either being offshored or taken by foreign contractors here on visas. We graduate people with tech and engineering degrees, but then don't offer them the jobs...because we can bring in people from India or Russia that will work for less. Even software engineering is being done in India now.

What kind of a job is a community college supposed to secure us in the future economy? Because right now the only thing I see our economy supporting is the service sector. Some business services, such as my field of marketing, and lawyers, will stay here, but even my company just recently sent our accounting/billing overseas. Are we supposed to be a country of bartenders, waiters/waitresses, hotel clerks, medical assistants and massage therapists?

I think what John McCain and George Bush really meant was that factory workers who lost their jobs because Americans are obsessed with cheap crap should go to community colleges to learn computer programming or something like that. But - DUH - that's not a stable choice anymore either! What ARE the jobs that will stay here?!

[B]If that is not lowering the bar...i don't know what is....

To be honest, I can't think of a job that is relatively stable anymore. I am a credentialed teacher with a Masters yet I was still laid off last year. I was fortunate enough to have my pink slip rescinded but I know that for many other teachers, they weren't as lucky as me.

Here's another article I found on the GOP slamming community organizers. My aunt is extremely angry over this issue because she is a very conservative woman and a community organizer. The way the GOP has been mocking them has made her decide to not vote for McCain and instead vote for Obama instead.

that grand slam conservatives kaap saying the GOP hit this week??

...looks like it bounce off of one of these in left field:

http://gruia.blogware.com/_photos/Wr...Pole.thumb.jpg

I'm not sure who can be blamed for the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs other then the CEOs whom are guilty of it or the American consumer who acts selfishly and buys the cheapest product available. Our conversion to a service-based economy is scary and seemingly causes a greater divide between the haves and the have-nots.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but there isn't anything that we can realistically do to prevent it without violating WTO rules and shitting on a couple of free trade agreements. Barack has proposed to end tax breaks on companies that send jobs overseas- something that John McCain voted NO on. This is one of the few issues where I agree with Obama even though McCain may end up being right. There are a lot of economists whom believe that outsourcing helps our economy and although that may be true to a point, eventually it makes the economy unstable.

The thing is, neither guy (but especially not McCain) are talking to "people like (you)" on this topic, as much as your situation sucked.

The majority of the unemployed still have less than a college degree, and skills programs are dedicated toward these individuals. The whole point is that manufacturing jobs are falling at the highest and most consistent rate, and that these jobs will likely never come back (because of the reality of global business, American demand for low costs and the existence of cheaper labor alternatives). This isn't a "let's make the art students go to a paralegal class"-type thing, at least in conception.

But what can the government actually do to support educated, white-collar professionals? Doesn't this seem like a private-sector issue (likely related to the middle-management bloat of the '80s and '90s)?

I guess I'm trying to say that it has to be bottom-up change - it's similar to supply-side versus demand-side economic stimulus, in that the pool of white-collar professionals will benefit from a more capable pool of lower-educated workers with job skills moving beyond loading a machine with materials and wearing eye protection. After all, if there's no one to manage, who needs a manager?

Would you rather we didn't participate in the global economy? Do you think the most important reason to be in business is to make a profit?

The confluence of these things is that there has to be a benefit to the business - and that comes not from tax subsidies, unenforceable regulation or red tape, or other such regressive taxes. Instead, we have to offer businesses a benefit from another angle - and a workforce that has a better, unique skill set would be one such way.

However, I do completely agree with your conclusion, but just view it in a different way - the key is to attack the problem from a variety of more creative angles than "tax breaks!!!" in a hit-and-run fashion. However, I don't think either McCain or Obama have really given me any indication they can do this - in fact, both side's plans seem regressive to me, and seem to pile the burden back onto the consumer in the end.

This is kind of a drastic departure/aside, and I mean this less as "against your ideas" than "topic for discussion" - with that said . . .

America is in the middle of a drastic change, from a manufacturing-based economy to a nebulous one, and through the Bush era we haven't done a good job at all of giving ourselves direction (whether that's Bush's fault is up for discussion, but I'll just use "we" to represent the nation as a whole). You speak of service jobs with disdain, which I think most people agree with, and that's likely a relic of an impression of the old, booming American economy. However, it may very well be that we start viewing a massage therapist as a "white-color" semi-skilled profession, on par with a payroll clerk with an AA in business math/accounting.

The manufacturing jobs are NOT coming back - never. Just like we put up with factory farms because most of us don't want to pay $12/lb for pork, we're going to have to adapt to outsourcing. Right now, it's a house of cards - but development has to start somewhere, and starting with the middle class is a recipe for disaster, because you're just bloating the middle of the house. Eventually, you have to strengthen the base.

LOL - you do realize that if it hits the foul pole, it's a home run, right?

depends on which way it falls.

No, it doesn't. If it hits the foul pole, no matter where it falls, it's a home run. That's why some announcers refer to it jokingly as the "fair pole."

I'd stay away from the baseball metaphors, slugger.

yeah well I love football...LOL

thank god for instant replays...HAHAHHA

PeppyGPhiB,
Do you feel like more protectionists policies are the answer? Or are you just irritated by the idea of overly simplistic answers to the what you see as only being a small part of the problem?

KSigRC,

More than anyone on GC other than MysticCat, your posts are reliably good. Even when my position doesn't align with you guys, I think everyone can just see the beauty of the pretty well-crafted arguments or the usually careful critique of someone else's maybe slightly flawed one.

No biggie - the fair/foul rule in baseball makes no sense. Maybe you should just throw a penalty flag when you disagree with someone's argument..haha.

He's a pretty smart guy, one of the 2 or 3 smartest people on here...even if he is a Red Sox fan. And I'm not just saying that because we're pledge brothers...

You do good work here too, but I was afraid sucking up to three people in one post was just too much. I'd probably also throw Breathesgelatin and AGDee into the "always worth reading" category too.

On that note, what happened to Shinerbock? Anyone know?

I think he's in law school...as I know all too well, it takes up quite a bit of time.

Yeah, but I thought it gradually let up as you moved through.

Maybe he spends a lot less time at his computer these days and more time enjoying the Athens, Georgia night life.

Haha, maybe. I'll say, though, that I'm in my 3rd year (of 4, I'm in the evening program), and it hasn't let up all that much. You end up getting involved with other things (clinics, law journals, etc.) and start taking higher level classes, and you stay pretty busy.

I hadn't really thought about that, but it makes sense of course. Law students just seem to complain about the first year a lot. Maybe it's just insecurity because you don't know what you are doing yet.

i want you to know that this post really grabbed my heart. i felt the same way about the speech and was even more disappointed at palin's speech. eventhough unedrstand the nature of the beast, as a woman and a mother, i was insulted. this is truly becoming a society of the haves and the have nots with the majority stuck in the middlei have not experienced everything you have. but my struggles are eerily similar. the only difference is that i have children and when i started my family i was at the beginning stages of my career.

the fact is and you said this, politicians in general are not tuned in. as we have seen with the gop some are less tuned in. after listening to c-span, there are so many people who are buying into this mess that it is scary. for me, there are aspects about the candidates that i like. i admire mccain and his military experience. he has appeared to have a moderate viewpoint on some issues and that is ok with me. as much as i dont know about palin, she does have that tenacity and fire without seemingly mannish. she also delivered a great speech and seems to exude a level of confidence that is always nice to see. i like obama because he did move up the traditional way, in some respects and eventhough he is a politician, i feel he believes that he can make the difference. him being a man of color is wonderful. when my son gets older, he will learn about what he can aspire to.

the best thing i know i can do is to stay informed. encourage everyone to vote. stay connected.

if i can offer some encouragement, DO NOT GIVE UP. no matter what. think outside the box. for me, i am trying to be as creative as i can in making career choices. my priority is my family. as far as i am concerned, my loans will be there and will probably be there until i die. so i do what i need to do and pray it all works out.

Thanks for the compliment - honestly, though, I wouldn't expect anybody on here to agree with my ridiculously idealistic/non-standard views (except, maybe, BG - godspeed to your child, kiddo, we need more of us, and I would be a horrific father). I just want to further discussion, because there are a LOT of smart people on here, and this could really be interesting. Logical fallacies make me want to punch a child. Your other "must-reads" are exactly correct - I've clicked on threads only because MysticCat was the last post, and I stalk ksigkid like some Tonya Harding shit.

HIGH lar i ous!!!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/in...big-acceptance

I want to see the reactions to this list that I just stumbled across, can any Obama supporters discredit anything from this list. It seems to be well documented, and I thought it made some good points.

The mainstream media continue to deteriorate into a world of slime and sleaze with their assault on Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republican candidate for vice president. They are picking up on lies manufactured in the blogosphere by hate groups such as the Daily Kos, and are transmuting rumors, speculations and outright lies into front-page smears disguised as hard news. As usual, the New York Times (September 2, 2008) has led the way with two front page storie s and a third on a full-page inside. The journalism of the New York Times now makes the supermarket tabloids look good by comparison.

Yes, the biased, slime merchants at the New York Times, the Philadelphia Inquirer and the rest of the mainstream media have spent more time vetting and investigating the 17-year old pregnant daughter of Sarah Palin then they have investigating Sen. Barack Obama, a candidate for president. They have spent more time investigating a 22-year old DUI incident of Mrs. Palin's husband than they have spent investigating Sen. Obama's illegal use of cocaine and his admitted boozing and his long-time association with terrorists and racists. They give Obama a free pass but look at Palin's daughter as if the daughter is on the ticket.

Former Sen. Fred Thompson was right on target when he said the mainstream media and its partner, the Democratic Party, are so in fear of defeat after the announcement of the McCain/Palin ticket that they are going ever deeper into the journalistic sewer to discredit Gov. Palin. I keep saying the mainstream media has hit rock bottom, but it conti nues to sink lower into the journalistic sewer. They are now clearly so devoid of journalistic principles, honesty and fairness that they will do anything. They are at bottom and can't sink lower.

Now here's 22 reasons to vote against Mr. Obama and for McCain/Palin.

1. Sen. Obama gives flowery speeches on change and hope. But he's part of one of the most corrupt political machines of all time. And instead of fighting and trying to reform the corrupt Chicago Cook County political machine, he used it to rise to power. When reformers tried to fight it, Mr. Obama refused to help them and actually was instrumental in defeating the reform movement. He preaches a new kind of politics but supports and uses one of the worst political machines in the U.S.

2. He led the battle in the Illinois legislature to assure that born-alive infants would not be treated as persons and would not be entitled to medical care. Instead, if Sen. Obama had his way, such babies born alive after a botched abortion would be left to die, thus legalizing what appears to be infanticide and murder.

3. When he first responded to Russia's invasion of Georgia, he said that aggression was wrong, but the U.S. would be in a better position if we set a good example. Thus he made it clear he was drawing a moral equivalence between Russia's aggression and the U.S.'s liberation of Iraq, which had violated 17 United Nations resolutions. This reaction alone, suggests not merely bad judgment but apparently no judgment at all. Then after giving it more thought, his second response was turning the matter over to the United Nations. That of course was a stupid idea as Russia has a veto in the Security Council.

4. He sat in the pews of the Trinity Church in Chicago, listening to a notorious racist, bigot and anti-American, Rev. Jeremiah "God Damn America" Wright, without a peep of protest. He did not leave the church until Rev. Wright said Obama is just another politician who says what he has to say. And that move was dictated by political considerations, not any moral outrage.

5. He started his political career in a fund-raiser in the home of William Ayers, an unrepentant terrorist and anti-American. He still hasn't denounced him but says Mr. Ayers is now a member of the Chicago Democratic mainstream. He still maintains a friendly relationship with him, has served on a board with him, and has participated in speaking panels with him.

6. He refused to wear a flag on his lapel, claiming he viewed it as a symbol of false patriotism employed after 9/11. He started wearing the flag only when he was embarrassed into doing so under political pressure. At that time he suddenly started ending his speeches with the words "God Bless America."

7. He got an earmark appropriation from Congress for his wife's employer, the University of Chicago Medical Center. When questioned on the appearance of conflict of interest, he said there was nothing improper about that but he should have gone to his fellow Illinois Sen. Dick Durban, to put the appropriation through. In other words, if there is an appearance of conflict of interest, you should hide it somehow instead of avoiding what creates such appearance. This is a pattern: saying one thing and doing the opposite. When he started to run for the presidency, he stopped putting in earmarks. As is his usual pattern, he started doing the right thing for election purposes only. So judge him by his record, not moves that are merely campaign calculation.

8. He favors increasing the capital gains tax, even though he admitted it will not raise tax revenue, but cut it instead. He justifies such an irrational move, out of what he calls a sense of fairness. That would mean less tax revenue, higher deficits and less incentive for saving, investment, capital formation, economic growth, and creation.

9. He called for negotiations without preconditions with the Ahmadinejad of Iran, Chavez of Venzuela, and Castro of Cuba. Even Senator Obama recognized the folly of this idea, so he backed off of it after an explosion of criticism. He thinks sweet talk solves all problems, and when a problem calls for something beyond sweet talk, he 's stumped. He speaks loudly and often, but carries a toothpick-size stick which he is afraid to use. Another example of Mr. Obama's naiveté was his comment that Iran is a small country not to be feared.

10. He opposed the surge, said it would fail, and even after it was almost universally acclaimed to be a success, he refuses to admit the surge succeed ed.

11. He called for withdrawal from Iraq, in effect, calling for retreat and defeat, which would have turned over the Middle East and much of the world's oil supplies to terrorists and their supporters in Iran.

12. He associated with and made a land deal with convicted felon, Tony Rezko, even knowing he was under serious investigation. He admitted this was what he called a boneheaded mistake. Mr. Obama seems incapable of judging his associates, as his close and friendly encounters with the hate-America and terrorist crowd suggests. Even an otherwise friendly biographer, said he is at home with the hate-America types.

13. He claims he will bring all sides together but he has never shown any signs or symptoms of bipartisanship. His record is that of a far-left liberal, the most liberal of any member of the U.S. Senate. He goes down the party line, and never reaches across the aisle.

14. He claims he will bring change to Washington, but picks a long-term Washington insider, Sen. Joe Biden, who has been in the Senate for decades, and is rated the third most liberal in the U.S. Senate. He claims he'll be the agent of change, but in his acceptance speech he catalogs the tired left-wing Democratic agenda, that has been regurgitated every four years for decades. He talks change but dishes up only the old liberal dishes, which have been rejected by voters many times from McGovern to Carter, and which have failed when implementation was attempted. If Mr. Obama wins the White House, he is likely to have a veto proof Congress, which mean all of his left-loony proposals would probably become law. Electoral history suggests Americans don't go for such unrestrained power. Beware of an Obama/Pelosi/Reid triumvirate that would bring us radical liberalism in its worst form.

15. He says he wants to bring us energy independence but refuses to drill and extract our huge reserves, greater than those of Saudi Arabia. He wants us to check our tire pressure instead of drilling. Give me a break! He also advises everyone to tune-up their cars, even though most cars no longer need tune-ups.

16. He never sticks with a job. For example, when he became senator he started writing his book. Then within two years of becoming a senator, he started running for president. It is not surprising that he has no legislative accomplishments. This has been the pattern of his entire career. He never sticks with anything long enough to chalk up significant achievements. That's why when asked about his accomplishments, his supporters seem to be stumped. Dean Barnett, in an article in the Weekly Standard (Sept. 1, 2008), entitled "Would You Hire Barack Obama? The resume of a chronic underachiever," writes, "You'd have to conclude that Obama's failure to commit himself to any career sufficiently to excel at it suggests some unexplained restlessness." I'd say it suggests he's a dilitante, who flits from one project to another, but never stays long enough to deliver a satisfactory end product.

17. As talk show host Michael Medved has pointed out, the people vouching for him at the Democratic National Convention were mainly relatives, such as his wife and brother-in-law. There were not major figures vouching for him, because they could not vouch for a classic empty-suit. Even Hillary Clinton, in her convention endorsement speech, said Democrats must support him, but in no way vouched for his character or judgment. Contrast that with the people at the Republican National Convention who vouched for Sen. McCain - Sen. Joe Lieberman and former Sen. Fred Thompson.

18. To bolster his foreign policy credentials, he picked Sen. Joe Biden as vice president. Sen. Biden voted for the war in Iraq, which vote Sen. Obama views as the symbol of bad judgment. So even Sen. Obama admits Sen. Biden ha bad judgment. Sen. Biden also comes up with wacky ideas of his own such as splitting Iraq, a sovereign nation, into three parts for the Kurds, Shias, and Sunnis. He also voted against the first Gulf War, even after Iraq had invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Middle East. I'd think most would consider that the height of bad judgment. He opposed the surge. He opposed Reagan's build-up to fight international communism, so his bad record is long and unbroken. Biden has judgment bad enough to match that of Sen. Obama's.

19. He flip-flops on matters that suggest he has no principles except the old Chicago machine principle of do anything you have to do to get elected. He promised to take public financing, something that the great reformer and change artist claimed to be committed to. Then when he saw it was to his political advantage to stay with totally private contributions, as that would bring in more money, he went back on his promise and rejected public funding. He said that his wide array of contributors to his campaign made his approach into public financing, one of his more nonsensical pieces of logic. He think if he uses sufficient oratorical powers he can make two and two equal ten, or private financing equal public financing.

20. He constantly uses such expressions as, "I would be glad to debate my opponent on that issue anytime, anywhere." But that is just for oratorical effect. In practice, he refused Sen. McCain's offer of a town meeting every week to debate the issues. He is clearly afraid of unscripted sessions. If he is not smart enough to go off the teleprompter and script, he is not smart enough to be president.

When he participated in the Saddleback debate with Pastor Rick Warren, he demonstrated again he doesn't make sense when confronted with tough questions without the answers on a script. When asked when does life begin, he said that was above his pay-grade. If that question is above his pay grade so is the presidency of the United States.

21.He would like voters to view him as a man of great political courage, but he has a documented record of political cowardice. For example, when in the Illinois legislature, he voted "present" over 100 times and was well known for taking that route, of neither a yes or no vote. Present is a classic sitting on the fence and waiting to find out which way the wind will blow. As William Kristol of the Weekly Standard (Sept. 1, 2008) has pointed out, " Has he shunned the easy path or broken with the conventional liberal pieties of those around him? Has he taken on his own party on a major issue? Nope."

22. Mr. Obama bases his campaign on his superior judgment, and that in turn is based on his speech against the war in Iraq. Of course, he never made a vote against the war, as at the time he was in the Illinois legislature, not the U.S. Senate. He gave the speech at an anti-war rally in the liberal Hyde Park section in Chicago. But votes are more important than speeches. And since he's been in the Senate, he's been wrong on every issue related to Iraq. These mistaken positions were summed up in an article by Emery in the Weekly Standard (Sept.1, 2008) entitled "Misfortunes of War: Success in Iraq Confounds the Democrats." It isn't easy to be wrong on every vote and pronouncement on Iraq, but don't underestimate Sen. Obama's ineptness in the foreign policy area. Mr. Emery writes: "He claimed that the Anbar Awakening took place as a result of Democrats' congressional victories, but it began in September 2006, two months before before the voting took place. He opposed not only the troop surge, but also the strategic changes that took place along with it, that did so much to enable the victory. He said the American military had noting to do with the Anbar Awakening or with the retreat of the Sadr militia, something denied by the Iraqi military and by the Iraqi Sunnis themselves. He was also wrong in his predictions that none of this would occur."

Sen. Obama not only has judgment bad enough to make him wrong on every foreign policy question, but he also has the knack of picking advisors and close associates who have a strong record of being wrong. For example, his choice for vice president, Sen. Biden, and one of the senators that accompanied him on his trip to Iraq, Sen. Chuck Hagel, introduced a resolution in opposition to the buildup that was the surge that turned the tide in Iraq.

Sen. Obama's inexperience in foreign policy is perhaps his most dangerous deficiency. But don't underestimate his ability to wreck our economy, destroy the incentives for entrepreneurs to take risks and build jobs, and to wreck our health care delivery system.

I fthis was black jack...you would have failed.....I will see your 22 by asking you six

Now...we all know that McCain has a habit of trotting his POW out in front of the public like it's his show horse....so....let's bring a few things to light.

Some POWs have thier own views of McCain:

http://www.usvetdsp.com/aug08/mccain_unfit.htm

http://www.powermusicinc.com/

1. Why was he allowed to crash 5 planes and continue to fly?

2. Since The McCain Bill has been enacted, what is his success rate in bringing POWs home?

3. How much did he really fight back against his captors and how much did he comply with them knowing he may have been getting preferential treatment?

4. Why would a man who parades his POW status, also block an investigation aiming to bring others home?

5. What bills have McCain shot down (no pun intended) that would have helped vets educationally and socially? Why?

6. Why did McCain vote against increasing medical services for veterans, funding to improve veteran medical facilities, and veteran outpatient care?

and by the way...if that 22 point list is something you stumbled on, you may want to give proper credit to where it's due and leave us a link since it is not your work and since (if it's from another website) GC requires it.

Sorry about not postng a link, you can find the information at NOBAMA.com I would also like to note, this list, to my knowledge was not compiled by a large media group, rather it just looks like someone who did a little digging and organized the way that they did.

First off, how does his POW status effect how he will run the country. I dont think he uses it as a plan of attack, but rather to let people know that he has struggled through some very difficult times and that those experiences helped shape him as an individual. I think he uses it more as a sympathetic gesture, and a way to relate to the rest of the military.

Anyway, it appears as if the same old tactics are still being used. I want to know what people think of what was said about Mr Obama, not how to change the focus away from him to McCain.

Go Obama :) It's quite easy to copy and paste someone's web page to us without doing any real research of your own. I did it for you this time.

Daemonseid, look up the planes thing. Be pro-Obama without spreading slander/libel.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...ve_planes.html

Hey Trey,
I think you forgot out some points...

Obama was actually on the board of Directors at Enron and his Father was hitlers butler...
Not Only that, he eats babies. He like to cut them up in a little strips and dip them into a nice tangy sweet and sour sauce.

... yes, all because Michelle Obama is a mail order bride...

yes, because Obama was blackmailed into staying at the church due to his sex tape with Kristie Alley and a four year old orphan from the south side of chicago, both of whom claimed rape...
Yes, and together, Obama and Ayers were the second and third gunman on the grassy knoll.



Really Trey, you left out SO SO much, I mean I can go on and say what is left out of the other 17 points, but the information here alone is enough to convince someone not to vote Obama... especially since all that is said above (yours and mine) is so carefully fact checked, providing all the necessary information for judgment, and in no way has any spin to it.

Drole...my bad thank you...

trey...maybe you are still missing the point I was making...he trots out his POW record for the sympathy while there are records that reflects APATHY to fellow veterens and POWs.



How do you want us to feel sympathy for your struggle when you haven't addressed that same struggle that others went thru during your time in office?

Eh, it's probably the latter that bothers me. As if all the people losing their jobs are uneducated bafoons who don't know how to use a computer, and as if sending all of them, especially recent college grads, to community college to learn who-knows-what-since-they-never-specify is the answer to our outsourcing problems.

I can understand that.

And I feel like I experience the same thing from all political candidates. To really try to explain how things would work is to wonky for most people's level of interest, assuming that there's even really a plan and it's not just rhetoric.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but I'm really curious how Obama can cut as many taxes as he's talking about cutting, implement as many social programs as he's talking about implementing, and ensure as many labor protections as he's talking about delivering. I'd love to see some numbers.

He admits that he will raise taxes for those making more than $250,000. He also figures if we get out of Iraq, that's a heck of a lot of money that's not being spent. Cutting tax breaks for companies that outsource to other countries is another source of more income. However, I have said before and I will say again that my biggest concern about him is "How are we going to pay for it all?"

Right. I don't think we can.

Even the cutting tax breaks for companies that outsource is potentially goofy seeing as that many companies can elect to basically relocate entirely. You don't really want to create a disincentive to be based in the US.

And I think it's going to be a long time before we can expect to see savings from being out of Iraq, and I may be pessimistic, but I don't think the money related to military and security is really the place to count on saving.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. If you had told me a month ago that McCain would be polling as close to Obama as he is now, I'd have laughed at you.

Don't you think it's post convention bounce? Or did you expect it to have opened to a double digit lead?

Huh. I think it's a post convention bounce however, I also think that this election will be a lot closer than people realize.

People are slowly falling out of love with Obama and have begun to analyze what he's actually saying.

I'd say the convention bounces cancelled each other out - and really, the McCain campaign was approaching zombie, night of the living dead, d.o.a. status before Palin. Love her or hate her, she certainly energized the McCain campaign.

And yes, given the current approval ratings of the President, I would think the democratic candidate would have pulled further ahead at this point. (Even if it wasn't Obama - but I've always said if there is a way to pull defeat out of the jaws of victory, the Democrats will do it!)

I too think this will be a close one.

It's going to be a close election. This recent push has been the post-Republican Convention bounce, but I don't expect either candidate to open up much of a lead.

I hope it's a close one with a slight McCain win because I don't think I can realistically hope for a big McCain win, unless something huge happens before November.

What I feel like I don't know in trying to assess things is who is actually going to bother to go to the polls on election day.

It's one thing to say you're a likely voter if someone calls to poll you, join a facebook group, or otherwise support a candidate before the election; it's another to take the time to wait in line to vote on election day. (Campaign donations probably really say something, but it's in the number of distinct givers rather than in total amount, I hope.)

I tend to think the McCain/Palin voters are older and I'd be really surprised if someone who was a first time voter was attracted to their campaign. You have to have a certain cynical, immunity, probably created by years of failed campaign rhetoric, to be willing to resist the Obama campaign's message, I think.

It just comes down to whether enough Obama voters bother to show up in November.

I think it will all fold out in October. I felt the attacks on Obama during the RNC where paper thin and repetitive. That is not the Republican party I am use to. I can't help but think they have something and they are holding out so that Obama can truck right through that as well. I think October will get ugly, and when the debates start coming, we will see some shift this way and that. I do not think the polls mean much right now.