Fratty North?
 

I go to school up above the Mason-Dixon line here at Penn State and rushed fall my freshman year. i always assumed that all fraternities were 'fratty' like southern fraternities, and thats what i wanted to join; tradition, dress code, and everything that goes along with the fratty south.
but i guess that type of fraternity doesn't translate to the north as much. my house is similar, but still lacks (like our whole system at PSU), a lack of prestige, honor, and 'fraty-ness'.

So.

Any reasons why you think northern fraternities are less like southern fraternities?
and
How do you think northern fraternities, like mine, move (back) toward that?

You'll probably catch flack for this question, but here are reasons I think it's like that.

1. Tradition - South has always relied heavily on tradition. Alot of the times you have "well my daddy went here and was this fraternity, so I'll do the same." You see this heavily during rush for towns. "Well, I'm from Stuttgart, so I pretty much have to go Sigma Chi", etc.

2. Economic Circumstances - College is still a significant achievement for many throughout the south. The fraternity is just another symbol of that wealth. Disposable income and so forth. I dare say that it's seen more as a country club, where you drink and make business connections rather than party. Partying is what's done as well, but I myself, never see the fraternity as a party.

3. Military Tradition - Whereas many places throughout the country have been scared off by the hazing allegations and the rigorous army-style workouts, the fraternity has been since the '50's a place where you can go through a "country-club military."

4. Dress - Greeks don't need to ever wear their letters on jerseys or some crap. You know we're greek by what we where during our daily life. It's what we grew up wearing for the most part (some acquired for sure), but it automatically separates us from the GDI's. We don't flaunt our letters, it's not necessary. The presence is felt without them.

Perhaps some of these are wrong, but I don't know.

How to move it back to that is far more difficult.

I really don't know. It's hard to change a whole campus culture. Especially one with 50 some GLO's. Start with your own chapter. Enforce and encourage elitism. That's about all I can say.

Exactly what elephant walk said,

Its how we've been raised. I've been brought up to take pride in the way I dress and the way I carry myself. From the time I was little, its been put into my head that I would go to a southern school and join a fraternity, and I never questioned that. I wanted to by just like my dad and my uncles, and all of the men I looked up to.

You can always tell the greeks from the none greeks, and its not even so much how they dress. In the south, everybody where columbia shorts, polos and rainbows. You can tell the greeks by their attitude. There definitly is a feeling of elitism, and rightfully so.


The best thing you can do is get on bid committee and stop bidding douchebags

I'd say your second point might be a little off base saying going to college is a big achievement for many in the South. Being in a fraternity is definitely a symbol of some level of wealth. It's not light on the pocket book, and it was designed that way. There are a few pockets above the Mason-Dixon line that are similar to those South of it, but in general you won't. The rest is of EW's post is pretty spot on though.

Moving towards it? First, you start with your chapter. Many Fraternities haze in the South for a reason. Not to be mean (and I know many of you are going to disagree, but I'm also guessing you don't haze, and would therefore wouldn't know why it's done, or anything like that, but to make sure that pledge wants to be there. That being said, don't haze for hazing-sake. Have dress-codes for pledges, and that also means you make sure they know how to dress like a gentleman (preferably Southern Gentleman), make them learn who the brothers and members are, so on and so forth. That should start helping the immediate situation, but make sure you continue with the traditions special to your chapter and/or fraternity. There is NOTHING wrong with tradition.

Now, I'm sure I'll get a ton of crap from those in northern fraternities for sounding very Southern biased and that's fine, but he basically asked how to make his fraternity and ultimately his greek system more like a Southern system.

This is out of my lane as a female, but unless things have changed radically in State College, I'm just jumping in as a Penn State alum.

First, I appreciate the candor and respectful way the southern brothers responded to this question. These are probably the best explanations of how southern houses run that I've read on GC.

But second, to the OP, while I understand what you're saying, again, unless Penn State has radically changed, this isn't something to strive to "go back" to, because that's not the tradition of the greek houses there. Which does not mean the houses don't have tradition, they definitely do, but it's different from the southern way. I think if you introduced anyone to Penn State's greek system that wasn't from the deep south, they'd see Penn State as the "traditional greek system" -- it's all just frame of reference.

Out of 40,000 students at PSU, 11 or 12% are greek, so right there, it's a distinct population. People wear letters (except Beta, when I was there, because they said "you just know a Beta" -- well, I knew a guy for a whole year and when he finally wore a shirt with letters right toward the end of the year, I was completely surprised to find out he was a Beta, so whatever) because it's such a large greek system and (a) they're proud to be greek and (b) they want to be associated with their house. And it's flippin' cold, so hey, when it's 20 degrees and snowing, that big letter hoodie is a good idea.

Don't hold your house or our huge northern greek system in comparison to a place like Ole Miss or Bama, they're completely different. Kids in Philly and Pittsburgh and Ohio and New York and from all over the U.S. are not "raised to be greek" like they are in the south. And that's ok because that's just not the frame of reference up there.

Trying to build your house's reputation among the chapters on campus is an admirable and attainable goal, but you need to be realistic about what will fly in Happy Valley. If you guys all start to wear boat shoes, make your pledges wear shirt and tie to football games rather than the "white out" PSU attire the student section rocks out, stop wearing letters and act like you're a "country club", my guess is that it will explode in your face. Build on the strengths of your current brothers and recruit guys that bring additional strengths you need.

I understand, and Penn state def. has merit in its greek system, i was just seeing how it differed and why. out of curiousity. and i wasn't implying that penn state greeks have no tradition, because we do and i am proud of them, but they just seem less "bought into" by members.
however its unfair for me to judge, i lived in VA with a father who was greek at ole miss. and a mother who was greek at william and mary.
so just from what my dad told me, i had different expectations about it.
thanks for all the answers!

You know, I'll be honest. I run into brothers from other schools alot who wonder the same thing and try to emulate the houses. It's flattering. I hope it's succeeding.

I guess this doesn't help because you yourself is from out of state, but I would suggest picking a very good high school and attempt to rush very hard out of that school. I don't know if that is very common elsewhere other than the south, but I would suggest this. It builds tradition over years. As I mentioned earlier, Stuttgart (a small town in the Delta of Arkansas) kids always go Sigma Chi. Often expected to, to some degree. The same goes with other kids from the Delta. Chi-O does a similar thing. It creates tradition and a knowledge of that fraternity long before those kids in high school ever get up to campus.

Sort of a piggy-back onto what NittanyAlum said, many Greeks from the North lie is very liberal areas. We were not raised in as much tradition as we were raised to think outside the box and stir things up a little.

Guys from my high school often pledge houses specifically where they didn't know anyone. They felt that college was often a time to re-create yourself, meet knew people and experience a different culture. Back in time (when I was in school), it was not unusual to see a Christian pledge a traditionally Jewish house. This held true for both sororities and fraternities. We accepted African Americans in nearly every chapter -- this is still taboo in some areas of the country.

Many Big 10 (ok with PSU it's 11) do have strong traditions. It's just a different type of tradition. And, I'm sure if you look real hard, you can find Frattiness. The difference is that Fratty will probably be heckled.

My experience is only limited to the Ivy League but, as far as the North goes, the Greek system (again, with the exception of those crazy co-eds) was pretty fratty. There definitely weren't gelheads at any of the chapters at my undergrad, and the members were the guys who would dress up for football games and there were a lot of legacies to fraternities like Sigma Chi. There is a LOT of "going back," as Homecoming is almost exclusively Greeks and not that many independents come back to campus.

I don't know if that's a byproduct of the general exclusivity of Ivy League schools, but there you have it. We've got some fratties up here, too. :)

To build on what Munchkin03 said, the elite, tradition-heavy, well-dressed, country club thing is alive and well at places like Princeton, Dartmouth, and Harvard, although that element is a small segment of the student population. Cottage Club at Princeton, Porcellian at Harvard, etc. would likely impress the ultra-fratty Southern chapters we're talking about.
________
Ryushi009

I think this probably actually does happen to a point - as in, all the kids from [name high school here] that go to Penn State might end up at a certain GLO just because they see a person they know at rush. The thing is, if your high school is big enough to make a dent as far as a fraternity's numbers, it's doubtful that everyone from there will go Greek. Our high schools range from graduating classes of 30 to 500. Yeah, my sorority pledged everyone from Curwensville High for a few years - but that added up to only like 10 people because that's all that came to my school!!

Honestly - I think what you're talking about happens more up here with athletic teams than fraternities.

My fraternity has a lot of military men and career academicians. We also have our fair share of salesmen, factory workers, Walmart greeters and casual workers. We've got a wide mix of people from all races and regions and ages.

Where we get fratty is having friends outside the fraternity. I have maybe one good guy friend outside the fraternity, and everybody is anxious for me to Rush him. It's like joining literally buys the friendship of 40 active brothers and you will remain friends for life. That's not true in its entirity, but critics claim that the 300 dollars we pay in membership dues is like a taxation and we discourage making friends from outside the fraternity, unless it's part of a Rush effort.

I suppose that's true to a certain extent. But it's easily explainable. If you Rush in a class of 20, you spend a dozen hours in pledge ed, as well as participating in events, mixers and socials and are expected to provide a serious level of devotion. So instead of spending Thursday night with friends from your dorm floor down at the student pub, you're spending them with other pledges learning the Docet (our pledge manual). And although we don't haze or expect anything from a pledge I wouldn't do myself in front of my mother, they're expected to show up for fundraisers, campus cleanups, bottle drives, workbees, etc. So their Saturday mornings are pretty much taken, as are Friday nights.

Then once they become brothers (we have a mandatory limit of 60 days on the pledge period), they've got 20 close friends they've been through pledging with, as well as a whack of cool upperclassmen to associate with. And these are people they have plenty in common with. So instead of spending time with randoms from the dorms or one of seven roommates in an apartment, they start spending all their free time with brothers. So really, we're not buying their friendship, we're paying to run an organization that promotes well-being.

If that's fratty, we're guilty.

Thomas

I'm sorry, but what are you trying to say? i'm not sure that has to do with either of my questions.
ha..

To go along with the Ivy League thing, those schools seem to be the only ones that fit in more with the South.

I don't believe that kids in the south are raised to be greek, they are just raised differently. Having moved from PA to Atlanta I can attest to this. In the south most kids are raised in such a way that appears 'country club' to those in the north but is really just ingrained in the southern way of life. Speaking respectfully with ma'am and sir, please and thank you, and never calling an adult by the first name is as automatic as breathing. We also noticed that the kids dressed much more preppy and on the whole a little nicer than the kids did in PA. I know I'm going to catch flack for that but it is the truth as we experienced it. Having transferred to the Atlanta area with high school kids we were acutely aware of subtle differences in dress and culture and these southern kids did impress me.

I'm from the Big 10 also, and I agree things are much different. Our chapter took a trip to Georgia to visit another chapter for their formal and it's a much different style of Greek. Ours is much more laid-back and less formal.... Which can be a good or bad thing depending on what you want. (For instance, our Exec Board proposed doing all Formal Meetings instead of two formal and one semi and one informal and faced a lot of resistance from some girls and support from the others)

My experience with the Big 10 is also that you can't really tell if a person is Greek or not unless they wear letters. Overall, there are plenty of GDIs who dress extremely classy on a day to day basis. And the "Coastie" nickname took off on our campus to describe the dress of some of the Greek girls, and it describes a scrub look, rather than a dress and pearls.

Really, with the fraternities on our campus, the "fratty"-ness depends on which you pledge. Some are really close-knit brotherhoods where the men wear suits regularly and have that more country-club feel. Others are much more loose and laid back where the guys spent a majority of their time with people outside the fraternity and live in sweatpants. They both do very well, because different guys (looking for different things out of their GLO) pledge them.

Bottom-line: It won't be the same as what you find in the SEC. But that doesn't mean it won't be terrific.

I guess being fratty means something different at our school (that is, an exclusive attitude that you're either with the fraternity or you're an outsider to everyone).

I do note that when I break out the seersucker suit and string tie, I get some good natured ribbing.

Thomas

Perhaps it's more significant here?

I went to a public high school and graduated with over 500. 1/4th went Greek, 1/4th never went to College.

I think there are just plain more colleges here too. That has something to do with it. The pool of students is more spread out.

The whole "kids from [Insert High School] usually pledge XYZ" happens in a few places, just not in the SEC.

My school is far from "Southern," but there are 2 big all-boy private schools and 2 big all-girl private schools (well one recently became co-ed but is still 90% girls) where the guys from one school usually end up in Pike and the guys from the other pledge a few other chapters (we have a lot of guys from the other all-boys school).

With the all-girls schools, they either end up in Alpha Xi Delta or Phi Sigma Sigma (especially the legacies).

Of course, there are exceptions to this general rule-my little brother now is from the school where most guys pledge Pike. But it is still almost expected that people from certain high schools pledge certain chapters.

And my school is far from Fratty- our Greek system is less than 30 years old. So it goes to show that this happens outside the SEC too.

This caught my interest, I was wondering how are "Formals" in other campuses? Because on mine, it's an all-out, rent-a-limo-or-party-bus kind of thing. Kind of like Prom in college except with an open bar.

I've seen formals from places like UF and they seem to be done in regular banquet halls.

And how much are tickets per couple?

So what are the fraternities up north like in terms of how they dress? Do they usually wear block letter hoodies and what do they wear for gamedays?

And I pray they don't wear jorts.

Although I do not go to USC (Southern California), I know quite a few people who do and it is interesting that it mimics the SEC Greek experience in a small handful of ways with particular emphasis on the sorority system. Before people on both sides of the "fratty" system jump on me, I'm well aware that there are certain aspects that don't align (fratty wardrobes, lack of racial integration, etc) but there are some that do which I find very interesting.

For one, the emphasis on tradition is very present. USC is one of the very few schools from outside the South/Texas area that seems to be so heavy on tradition. When you look at their Greek system, which contains several single letter chapters, you see this. My friend in one particular chapter said that every year they have dozens of in-house legacies coming through rush, many of whom pledge there. She said of the four sororities that are considered "top tier", three of them are overwhelmingly full of legacies and, most interestingly to me, women from particular areas of Southern California. Women from one high school in Newport Beach will invariably go XYZ, from another high school in Malibu the women will all go ABC, etc.

In addition, they have many of the aspects of Greek life that seem to be present with the SEC. Full blown formal recruitment where recommendations are extremely important (if not vital for a few chapters), huge football traditions, overwhelming alumni support, gigantic well decorated chapter houses, 200+ member strong chapters with pledge classes routinely in the high 60s, etc.

However, unlike the SEC there are chapters that are available to women without recommendations/connections, etc and to state that Southern California "money" is close to SEC "old money" is ludicrous. I also think that just about anybody can go through recruitment and have an incredible Greek experience, which is strikingly different from many SEC campuses. For clothes, the sundresses are decidedly more trendy and the men are much more likely to throw on an RVCA t-shirt than a Polo shirt. So I do see the many differences. But I do feel that for certain houses on that campus (both fraternities and sororities) the amount of tradition, legacy and connections required to pledge certain houses mimics a budding version of Southern California wealth where certain families will have been attending USC and pledging certain houses for many generations (one friend of mine pledged a fraternity as a fourth-generation legacy!!!).

As I said, I do not attend there but have many friends and relatives that do. Can anybody confirm/deny/add? The Greek system (well, those few houses I guess, not the entire system) there has always interested me.

EDIT: With USC rising so quickly in the academic world I also wonder if the shockingly higher standards for admission from the last 10 or so years will stop this "SEC of California" trend as many legacies will not be able to gain admission to the school. I should also add that I have several family members who went to USC, hence my interest in their school/Greek system.

Honestly, from what I've seen, it totally depends on a bunch of factors: the chapter in question, who plans it, the occasion, etc.

For my chapter, it really depends on who's social chair. Last semester, our formal was really more of a semi-formal. It was in a small room in a rather nice, but not uber-fancy restaurant. There were no tickets, only what you bought food and drink-wise. Dresses were suggested, but not required (nice pants and a fancy top were an option). Guys were expected to wear a collared shirt, but a tie was optional.

This semster, we're having a formal in the Grand Ballroom of the Hilton in our city with a four-course meal. It's black-tie and will be between $40-$70/couple.

The fraternity formals I've been to vary as well, much of it depending on the fraternity, who is planning the event, the occasion, etc. (I'm not sure how much they cost: I've never had to pay.) I've had to go out and buy a dress or just borrow my roommate's sundress.

From what I've seen or heard, the sororities are in much of the same boat. A Tri-Delt friend of mine helped plan her formal. It was at the chapter house and dinner wasn't served: many people went out for dinner beforhand. Apparently, KKG had their formal a year before at the same place we are.

Ours is totally different.

Fraternities at the UofArkansas go to another city to hold the formal. They split a two bed room with a date and another fraternity brother and his date and spend the weekend there. It is very, very formal but the dancing is usually done in the downstairs of the hotel or really close so we can spend time drinking at the bar. Common destinations for formal are Kansas City, St. Louis, Dallas (try not to go there so much because so many of the members or their dates are from there, so it's not much of a getaway) or Memphis. Hot Springs is also an option but a far less used one.

Hot weather: Body Paint
Cold weather: We dress like eskimos

truth

I went to nearby Pepperdine and I'd say that much of this is true, from what I observed. There are a lot of legacies, recs are highly recommended, and the dress is trendier than what it is in the south. And all the chapters have a ton of alumni support. The worst chapter at USC is still likely to be a strong chapter for the sorority.

I agree with your comments on admissions to an extent. Yes, it's getting REALLY hard to get in to USC now, and not all legacies can get in, but keep in mind that USC is a private school. It can admit whomever it wants - unlike public schools that have strict formulas, a private university like USC can be totally subjective in its admissions. That's not to say that they'd admit a bunch of losers, but they I'm sure weigh legacy status heavily. Private schools depend on their alumni donors, unlike public schools that get their money from the state (also, a lot of the money given to public schools goes to athletic programs).

we do this too. We go to the closest big city, and get hotel rooms that we share with our date and another brother. They are very formal, even more so than prom. Its been a while since I've been to prom so things might be different now.

Why did you go to Penn State if you were seeking "Southern fratty"?
I totally agree with nittanyalum.

HA

(don't forget block letters on the furry parkas)

Ahh ok, nice.

SInce we're 20 minutes away from Miami Beach, we rent out a big Miami Beach hotel's banquet hall.

Tickets are $150 for active couples and $170 for alumni, we really go all out. And we definitely hire an open bar for the night lol.

Pantherteke- I also go to the University of Arkansas just like elephant walk and our formal is probably much differant than yours by the sound of things. Alumni DO NOT attend and there are no tickets you just have to pay for your hotel. Your dues that you pay every semester cover the social fund which pays for the band or DJ that you get for formal. Our formal has been in Dallas the last few years and after you pay gas, food, alcohol, golf, entertainment such as going to a mavericks game or stars game it ends up costing each guy between 400-600 for the weekend. Usually we rent out the bar at the hotel and have a band saturday night but the rest of the weekend is whatever you want to do. It is a great time and the Adams Mark has been very accomidating the last few years. dress is usually a cocktail dress for girls and a suit for guys

Sounds like a pretty good time. Our formal is the only thing not completely covered by our budget, so that's why tickets must be paid for. Many brothers also rent rooms but they pay for that too.

And since we're primarily a commuter campus, that's why alumni are allowed to go to ours. But believe it or not, they are pretty fun to get drunk with lol. Since our chapter is only 20 years old most of our alumni aren't past the age of early 40s.

ETA: The dress code is the same for us too though