Question About Quotas
 

Hi! This is my first post, but I've been lurking around for awhile. I searched for this topic, but I couldn't really find anything specific to my question. So, I'm just gonna go ahead and ask!

If a chapter has trouble making quota and has had trouble making quota for multiple recruitments, is this chapter less likely to cut as many girls as some of the other chapters throughout the rush process?

I ask this because I'm going to be rushing as a junior transfer next year and I have an alumna writing me a rec. The rec is for one of the chapters that has difficulty making quota and since I know I'll experience heavier cuts in general due to my class standing, I'm just trying to figure out my chances of being extended a bid from any of the chapters.

Also, I'll technically be a junior due to credits, but due to a change in major, I'll actually have more like three years left. I know this is important, but how exactly do I let the chapters know this?

Thanks for any answers/advice! =)

I would say that a chapter having difficultly making quota for a couple of semesters would not cut as much as other chapters at the school. That is because they probably have less girls coming back to invite only events.

Chances are nationals is on their back for them to raise numbers and they feel the pressure to have as many girls at events as possible.

The best way to let them know that you would still have about three years left, is to tell them. Every time you are speaking with a sister during rush, and year/standing is brought up just say: "Im a junior, but im still going to be here three more years, so ill be graduating with the sophomores" or whatever.

GOOD LUCK!

I agree with Deepher4life, especially if the campus is using the new release figures. The more popular chapters, in that system, must release more girls than the less popular groups. Be careful thinking of these chapters as "desperate" however, and go in selling yourself. They likely will not take you simply because you're a number. Your status is a little different than the average junior, so make sure they know that. In the end, though, you have to let these chapters know that you are interested.

the chapters with higher return rates have to release a higher # of pnms, and the chapters with lower return rates are allowed to invite back more pnms, but ultimately it is up to the chapter with lower return rates to decided how many they invite back. it is suggested that they invite back "x" number of pnms, but they can invite less if they prefer

the release figure model was designed to give the chapters who have not made quota in the past a better chance of making quota, and giving the pnms more chances to receive a bid. the good news is that it seems to be working.

don't worry about how many pnms a particular chapter can ask back-you just present yourself the best you can, and let the chips fall where they may. understand that some of the chapters might have dropped you because of your class standing and concentrate on the chapters that do ask you back.good luck!

Maybe I should clarify my post...more popular chapters are required to release more PNMs than the less popular chapters are. The less popular chapters, however, are not required to invite back as many PNMs as they are able to. In general, the chapters are trying to maximize their chances of filling quota, but very few would do so at the risk of accepting women who clearly do not fit in.

Our Panhellenic's policy is that any chapter who doesn't invite the max allowed for every round is not eligible for Quota Additions. That's a pretty darned good reason to invite the max.

That would definitely encourage inviting back the max but I can see that being a problem for the chapters that don't get high returns. I mean, face it--there's a certain percentage of PNMs that none of the sororities are going to want to invite back (anybody who doesn't understand should read the thread "Weird Rush Stories") so this seems to punish the low-return chapters. (Ask "Eyebrow Girl" back or you don't get any quota additions.)

I agree ... also what about the women who have below (inter)nationally mandated gpa's? You can't ask them back per rules from your HQ but if you don't you won't get quota addition. What happens to mutual selection?

Agreed. Panhellenic's general attitude that every PNM deserves to be in a sorority and therefore every chapter should be happy to invite/pledge her is ... to be polite ... frustrating and inaccurate.

I could understand if a chapter cuts WAAAAY more than the suggested number, but if it is a struggling enough chapter (i.e. if they were to actually make quota and still be under total) they'd be allowed to offer snap bids to any unmatched PNMs they want.

Regarding your years of "eligibility," vs junior status, be sure your rec writers know this and make it clear in their recommendations.

Snap bids are for chapters to fill quota, not total.

I'm pretty sure that some campuses do let chapters extend bids on bid day but after regular bid matching beyond quota if they were below total. Now, technically, these may not be called snap bids but they worked the same way from the PNM perspective and for the chapter too.

She was referring to the policy that said you had to invite the max number back to be eligible for QAs. For struggling chapters, QAs are probably a moot point. And they are allowed to snap bid/open bid anyone they want to get up to total.

I think we just have a terminology problem here.

Quota additions = the addition of women who did not match to bid lists of chapters who have made quota...only appliciable to chapters making quota...there are a limited number of these

Snap bids = helps chapters who didn't make quota to reach quota...only applies to those not making quota. You can snap up to quota even it it puts you over total.

A chapter that has reached quota cannot issue snap bids. The chapter can only issue COB bids if they are under total.


Also...it is a big step to say QA are a moot point for "struggling chapters"...and it would be just as big of a step to say that "popular chapters" don't usually have to snap bid. I've personally seen both scenarios.

Assuming there are people who want to accept the bids, which is always what makes it tricky

I think you are right that worrying about staying eligible for QAs is probably not that important for struggling chapters.

BUT, I think chapters with smaller numbers or lower returns should really think carefully about cutting folks.
The quality vs. quantity debate can go on forever, but sometimes, especially with PNMs well versed in competitive recruitment who won't telegraph their disinterest, chapters get delusional about who of the PNMs they really have a chance with and will consequently release some girls who would have been good members because they imagine they will keep perfect PNMs instead.

Don't keep crazy people who you'd be unwilling to bid and who are off putting to other PNMs, but don't get cut happy early in the process. The release figures are there for a reason; don't work against them.

This may sound horrible, but if the disposition is that every girl find a place, can't you figure out a way to suggest that the girls everyone really wants to drop get equally distributed among all groups rather than being placed in the groups that already have the lowest return rates?

Won't the-powers-that-be see that they are weakening the weaker chapters by compelling the weakest by return rate to keep the least desirable PNMs?


If it's a charity bid anyway, why not reassign the girls who got cut out of a round randomly back to parties rather than forcing the hands of a few groups?

It doesn't seem that it would be that hard to figure out and it would mean that the powerhouse chapters felt the same hardship that the smaller return rate chapters felt in terms of lack of mutual selection.

I understand.

From my limited perspective, I see greater danger to a chapter from cutting too many PNMs of comparable "quality" for lack of a better word as the current members than I have from a chapter having to keep a few less desirable girls. Not making quota and being under total year after year, in my opinion, does greater damage than having a few members who you weren't dazzled by round one.

I don't mean that chapters should just bid everyone for numbers, but there's a reason to be cautious with cuts.

What do they say when you point out what they are doing to the chapters with lower return rates?

I think you are right - we never used the phrase snap bid - an open bid was an open bid, whether the rushee in question went the whole way thru rush or not.

That's when you bring in your Big Squirrels (or maybe Medium Squirrels) and have them tell the Greek advisor "These rushees do not fulfill our minimum requirements and will not receive a bid from us under any circumstance. We do not wish to lead them on by inviting them back when they will not be bid."

Of course if this is a grade issue it's easy. Other intangible things, not so much.

Release figures are great but when it's encroaching on a group's ability to do membership selection in the way that their bylaws tell them to/in the way they see fit, that's when the individual group trumps Panhel. JMO.

I understand your frustration. What release figures are supposed to be doing is opening the girls' eyes to all the groups, instead of letting them keep hoping against hope that Awesome ABC wants them (when in reality ABC is just asking them back because, well, they can and it feeds their egos).

But the thing is, the perception that smaller chapters should take anyone anytime anywhere is not new - I remember CutiePie2000's story about having to put down a sorority for her pref that she didn't want. The Panhel thought they were doing the sorority a "favor" by "funnelling" women there -which is, of course, completely insulting.

Absolutely.

I wonder if there's a way for the system to accommodate this issue. I mean, at the point we're using algorithms to look at individual chapter numbers, couldn't "they" program in a variable for basically unqualified PNMs?

I really don't have that much of an issue with trying really hard to place all the girls who want to go through, but whatever hardship this philosophy creates should be born equally by the groups.

Sure it's a hardship for top groups to cut more girls early, no doubt, but I'm not sure it's equal to having to invite all the girls who were cut by the other groups back.

Basically unqualified PNMs should not get into a chapter. We are selective by definition. We have standards for membership and a woman who does not meet those standards can cause far more trouble than having one less member causes. A major drama queen, major slut or major risk management risk shouldn't get in just because of numbers. A woman who doesn't meet grade requirements shouldn't get in just because of numbers. The psycho crying girl that KSUViolet has told us about shouldn't get in because of numbers. There are limits. Should struggling chapters be more open to a young woman who is more shy and maybe had a hard time shining during formal recruitment? Sure. Should they take the girl that's done the walk of shame from every fraternity house by the third week of her freshman year? no way.

I really agree with this. I just want to clarify my last post.

It seems like RFs could account for unqualified PNMs and allow for all chapters to just straight up release a certain percentage of girls. And it seems to me that release methodology could do this and still function primarily as it does.

But in instances where the college is putting pressure on some chapters to cut no one, even the type of girls you describe (probably because they want to say they have 100% placement), I see no reason why only "struggling" chapters should be pressured to accept sketchy members. If the campus folks want everybody placed, place the undesirables equally.

You want quota additions? We got your quota additions. And then maybe everyone would be fired up enough to stand up to the pressure from the campus leadership pushing placement. It's easy to say placing everyone is a noble goal when you are required to make a lot of cuts. It's never going to affect you.

am i understanding it right that chapters with traditionally lower return rates are not allowed to drop pnms -that they have to invite back everyone?

on a different note, chapters with higher return rates aren't just dropping undesirable pnms-lots of times girls any sorority would love to have are dropped because of lack of recommendations or because they just fell through the cracks.

I find this discussion so interesting. I don't know enough to offer my opinion but from what I understand , FSU Zeta, you are right about some "falling through the cracks" unless some mid-tier groups are on top of the situation.

I didn't know it myself, but apparently based on what was said here, at some campuses, the pressure is on some chapters not to drop anyone. The invite targets for them would include the whole remaining pool of PNMS and since they can be penalized for not sticking to them if they cut too many (which I didn't know before), they are in a tough spot.

But absolutely, some chapters are compelled to release outstanding PNMs. And I'd say at some very competitive recruitments, almost all chapters have to release some highly qualified PNMs at one point or another.

To answer FSUZeta's question and also to build on UGAalum94's comments, there are definitely chapters that are "recommended" to invite back 100% of all PNMs all nights of recruitment. This would, in an ideal world, ensure 100% placement. How "strong" this recommendation is varies based on campus. At some places there are penalties, at some there's nothing more than a stern chat with the Panhel advisor. The thing is the advisor knows that anyone the chapter cuts is likely to completely "fall through" recruitment and not get a bid. I'll speak to my own chapter's situation. We would cut a variety of girls - some of whom were just really really rude and condescending to us because they didn't want to join. Panhel didn't so much care if we cut them because they were going to go somewhere else anyway - or if they got cut elsewhere they still certainly weren't joining us. It was the questionable awkward obese girls (to be frank) that the Panhel advisor got really worked up about because she knew someone was going to have to break it to them they'd been cut everywhere. Pretty much if we cut them that was sure to be what would happen.

Release figures, I believe, really help mid-tier groups (which is great!) more than the lower-tier groups. Sadly many PNMs will just not consider them, even if they're cut from the top-tier houses sooner.

Having said all that, I actually believe it's a much better idea to stick to the release figures and cut as few people as possible. I think a lot of chapters get the "quality over quantity" mentality and dig themselves into a numbers hole they'll never get out of (depending somewhat on the support level and philosophy of their national office). My philosophy is that you can CREATE the quality, but you have to have numbers in order to just be there and compete. You can really structure programming that increases the quality of some of your "marginal" PNMs. That said, there does have to be a balance. I don't think any chapter should be forced to take a PNM they don't want. I just think some chapters get too cut-happy thinking "quality quality quality"... They expect a lot from freshmen women, frankly, and aren't using the member development process enough to really create the women they want to have.

/soap box

Speaking from a highly competitive Recruitment standpoint, there is good and bad in the Release Figures System. We all know the (potential) good for the small/less successful chapters. More PNMs get invited back and since many of them may have been cut early from large/more successful chapters, they are hopefully more open minded and realistic about their chances. Along with that, the large/successful chapters aren't inviting back X# of PNMs just because they can, stringing them along with no intention of offering a bid.

But there is a down side. Just like with Panhellenic's assumption that every chapter should be happy to invite/pledge every PNM, they also have the assumption that every PNM is willing to join any chapter. Let's face it, on highly competitive campuses there are a lot of PNMs who firmly state "I want to be an ABC or nothing". There are some who take the position "I'm willing to be anything except an XYZ". No matter how many times they get invited back to a certain chapter they will never consider accepting a bid.

There's also a significant drawback for the large/successful chapters that I haven't heard talked about much. Having to cut such a large percentage in the early rounds means these chapters have to make drastic decisions without much information. You've got the 15 minute 1st round party where maybe 2-3 actives talked to a PNM, Recruitment application and recs to base decisions on. That's not a lot of info to make huge percentage cuts. There is less chance for those unknown "discovery" PNMs (especially out of state) to be invited back, someone who the chapter didn't know squat about before Recruitment and ended up falling in love with her. A chapter that is blessed with being highly successful has to practically set their bid list already on day 1 of recruitment.

Yeah, and it's hard to have that bid list when a big university has, say, 8 chapters at the top that are more or less alike and they're all competing for the same 200 or so girls. They usually don't know exactly which 2-3 chapters their preferred PNMs will love at the end.

This really varies with campus. At some campuses, COR is not a viable option for the sororities. They need to get the girls they want to get during formal recruitment. That's why I think it's more important to get the girls and then do tons of member development - at least if COR isn't really an option for you.

True. Every campus is different and that culture needs to be taken into consideration. On a highly competitve campus where traditionally all new members are obtained through formal recruitment, needing to COR can be viewed as a sign of weakness and/or internal problems. People wonder why is a chapter COR'ing and will often assume the worst.

The exception at Bama was a few years ago when Panhellenic significantly raised Chapter Total, pushing almost half the chapters below the new total and forcing them all into COR. If everyone else or at least several others are doing it too, then it's not a problem. But if there's only one or maybe two, then a chapter's reputation can take a hit.

Zillini, you are absolutely correct. But having the recs does help a lot...I don't understand why our national/international officers are not emphasizing this MORE.:rolleyes:
I never understand why a chapter member would say "you don't need recs" when our Constitutions and requirements for membership explicitly state that they are necessary for pledging. Often a chapter member doesn't know that there is a committee actively sending out requests to alums for recs all summer.
I also never understand why an alum refuses to fill out a rec...we clearly need to do a better job educating our new members.
That said...overall, the new release methods DO help the smaller groups. But there's a limit. Tent talk will trump release methods any day.
So we need to educate our members better on why talking down a group hurts us all...:mad:

Yes..for struggling or lower-tier chapters, release figures are a huge pressure that are unnecessary. Even when that chapter DOES invite back the maximum number of girls to the next round, they can still be pressured to take Crazy Candy, which is completely unfair. I would love to see them force this on the top chapter at a campus - for those PNMs, their chance of getting a bid there can be about the same as at a lower tier chapter - zero.

But are they necessary to advance in rush and/or receive a bid?? (I know I'm asking TMI, just pointing up your wording). I mean, I know there are DG chapters at IUP and Penn State and I have a VERY hard time believing that the majority of those rushees have recs before rush starts. They just aren't used a lot in these parts and if your girls were restricted to only rushees who had recs, the chapters would be screwing themselves.

Because the PNM sucks and she doesn't want to put her name on something recommending her?

Because she doesn't know the PNM from Adam and she doesn't want to recommend someone who she knows nothing about?

If an alumna knows a PNM is not a good candidate for membership, it would seem like filling out a rec is even more important.

And in the second instance, you could at least pass along the information that you did have, particularly if it's a campus that doesn't have potential new members fill out a ton of information. I don't think anyone is advocating just filling out recs at random for strangers. But if you could easy get information of benefit to the chapter and the girl, is it really asking that much? I'm also kind of cynical because I don't think chapters pay that much attention to who recommends candidates anyway unless they are current active members or recent alumnae. But filling our a RIF with honest information about how you know the candidate or where you got your info. isn't really putting yourself out there that much, but it might help the chapter a lot.

I am confused, it seems like AA was addressing a question that wasn't asked..."Why would a chapter member say 'you don't need recs'?" My guess is that a chapter member at a competitive school would say that if she WANTS the girl asking the question to be cut.

Oh, and alums might also not want to fill out recs because they just plain don't want to bother. Not everyone gives a crap about that sort of thing.

I would never fill out a rec or write a letter of recommendation or even introduction for a woman I didn't know personally.

I think the rec forms and what is required on them varies from GLO to GLO. Some forms ask for info as well as whether or not the alum would recommend them for membership. Other forms are filled out only if the member recommends the pnm for membership.