Should 10 & 11 year olds be charged?
 

So in another string of kids attacking other kids on April 3rd a 10 year old and an 11 year old girl attacked another 10 year old girl on the playground.



So my question to you all is, should these two girls be charged? I was watching Headline News and one attorney said no, that the two girls should get detention where they have to write "I will not do this ever again" at least 100 times. Why? Because juvenile detention would be to traumatic for them.

I think they need to be in juvenile detention or something very similar. I could care less if they are 10 & 11, they knew what they were doing.


This is the most recent article on it:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080410/...RF7Glvgf1G2ocA

They should do time in juvie, I agree. Perhaps make it so that on the off chance they become worthwhile members of society this incident doesn't completely hamper their ability to succeed.

However, they first need to have their asses kicked by members of their own families before letting the state have their shot. My sister is a mental health professional and constantly sees young people like this, usually with mothers who are asking "I don't know what else to do." Well, the answer is easy. If your daughter threatens to kill you and breaks stuff all over your house, find out what the law will allow and max it out.

This is why I agree with spankings. When I was a 6th grader, I got in a fight w/ another girl and got suspended. My mom definitely taught me a lesson about fighting when I got home!

What gets me is the one of the girls mom claimed she was an "A, B" student. So?

I guess I am the only one who does not feel like putting these kids into an institution. If they were older, perhaps. But any child under the age of 12 who physically assaults other children--outside of the "meet me at 3 o'clock behind the tether balls"... Juvie, is not going to help with recidivism, in my opinion.

An ass whoopin' by a parent will... If the intent was to steal money or beat the crap out of little Joey, because he's weak, and little Joey, stood up for himself, and kicked other dude's butt, then good for him. But, it still will be punitive damages at home.

I hate physically fighting. It does nothing for you and there will always be bullies. That is how people are in this world.

But having a penal system mentality will not stop certain negative behaviors.

Now if there were guns or knives involved, yeah, someone needs to beat their natural behinds within an inch of their lives.

Yeah I think it depends on the kid. If it were me, a pretty good kid mixed up in the wrong crowd who did something incredibly stupid, then time in a detention center probably would have scared me and been helpful. However, if these are kids prone to such behavior who are from detached or downright terrible parents, it may just reinforce that they're going to live a life like this.

Kids who do things that are so depraved have to know punishment, but if they're from a place where this is part of growing up, it won't help.

What a bunch of little animals!

I don't know how I feel about juvie, either. If they're there for any considerable period of time, they could come out being WORSE, since they're around a bunch of other bad-ass little kids who know the system in and out, and could teach them all sorts of crazy things.

How can you reform a kid like that, anyway?

I wonder this too, but I hope that they can be. Sometime though I think that some kids are just pretty much wired wrong from the get-go. A lot of creepy serial killer types showed abusing behavior when they were really young.

And I think those who are suggesting that parental punishment is the answer may be a little optimistic about what the parental authorities are like in cases where the kids are this out of control this early.

Do you suppose that you go from peaceful well-adjusted kid to stomping kids to the point of hospitalization overnight? If effective parental response was coming, I think they would have already gotten it.

See this is why I said they should go to juvie (or something similar). I think if they charge the girls as delinquents, i think the consequence is harsh (keeping them in juvie til they are 21), but give them a week, a month in juvie and I think it will straighten these girls out.

Even if these girls hadn't been in trouble (like this) before, doesn't mean they couldn't have been terrorizing other kids. That age is VERY prone to bullying.

But its the parents responses that get me---its like their child is some angel that can do no wrong. There has to be some consequence. If you leave it up to the parents or the school, then nothing will be done.

I really believe that if it took pretty much nothing for these girls to attack, then they could easily attack again!

Firstly, I don't think any kid doing such things as these have never been well-adjusted or have never known peace. And it is a wide fluctuation of bipolar psychosis for adjustment to lunacy--in my opinion.

A 10 year old do not have discernment yet. Discernment happens with a combination of age, biology (genetics), education and life-experience. Obviously, a 10 year old does not have the life-experience, education or age to really know the consequences of his or her actions.

Is there a cutoff point? Probably not until 18-20 years old. I don't know? However, it is still formative years for until ~25-28 years old. That is why it is tough when we have kids having babies at 10/11 years old or kids committing crimes with lethal weapons. How do we as a society monitor that?


Formal penal institutions are not stopping our crimes. And it sounds like the military does not want these kind of people either.

The issue is economic in nature. There is more upfront costs to solve this issue civilly, than to do the quick fix in throwing in a penal code institution. The penal code institution costs more in the long run and does not solve your problem that the civil action upfront costs and longterm avenue.

Longterm means going to group everyday of the week except Sunday, having check in with a licensed mental health worker and probation officers, etc. Nutritionists, physical evaluations with MRI for brain deformities and possible psychotropic drug treatments.

I do think there is possibly a loss in B-complex vitamins during pregnancy and post-natal care. I could be wrong.

I'm sorry, i think this complete crap. I got suspended in 6th grade for fighting--I was 11. I knew that there was consequences for my actions, to say that a 10/11 year old wouldn't understand is either underestimating a child, or bad parenting. Sure a 10 year old who hasn't ever been punished in their life wouldn't know the difference between right and wrong. But i've asked my 12 & 13 year old cousins about this, and their response---"put them in jail!"

But when something this wrong happens, i'm sorry, there should be consequences whether the child understands or not.

And I think if the parents don't do anything, something should be done for that as well.

In this thread and others I've seen people make the claim about how crimes can be prevented with more upfront costs. What is it that you think can be offered socially?

I think the problems come from a breakdown in the family and in a shared sense of community. I don't think either can be promoted with increased spending.

What do you have in mind?

When I say discernment, what would be the difference from the stopping, turning and walking away vs. committing acts of violence?

These kids think it is okay to do it and ask forgiveness later... The problem is when it is vicious and lethal, there is no forgiveness involved in that.

Apparently, either these kids NEVER knew the difference between right and wrong or they just don't give a damn. Probably both... Which means in America, we are in dire straits.

I am sorry, I do not want to believe that no matter how true. Call me delusional or looking through rose colored glasses, but has humanity gotten that bad in morals and ethics?

@Bolded: We all know what happens when we do nothing or make it worse that tackle the problem head on--we are a witness to it now... We do nothing or make it worse (i.e. violating the US Constitution) we will have G-E-N-E-R-A-T-I-O-N-S of clean up all because of anger, ignorance, and stereotype. Where does that get us? Have we truly solve ALL human problems?

It is about VIGILANCE--we must remain vigilant to end this kind of problem. And the thing is, it is not a one size fits all mentality--it is a individualistic, game-time, real-time, IM, live-chat (other 21st century euphemisms) that will solve these problems... Guess what, YOU ALL--Your generation will solve it. Mine is too old now. I'm not going to go out there and get beat down by dogs. Been there, done that. So, guess what, you all got recruited...

So, now that you find yourselves in this midst of this humanity--In medius res--might I suggest that you all use your intellect, your rationalism, your sense of democracy, federalism, pluralism, civility, deism, (all the isms) and upgrade it to be Podcasted, throughout your blogs... ;)

Can you all reach back and make that change? I don't know? But for some reason, I have more faith in your generation--maybe just for today--possibly because the Sun is shining in my area. And to me, IMO that's good enough.

AKA Monet, I am tempted to go with you on this- but let me please pose a question first.

Do you think these two kids really understood that they were inflicting serious medical damage to the victim?

That is where I have a hangup with this. I remember the odd grade school fight, and I really don't think we had any concept that we could really hurt somebody so badly.

Shove a kid on the ground, and he gets sand in his hair. Shove a kid while you are on the jungle gym and he falls and breaks an arm (the latter did happen at my school once and noone was arrested or charged with a crime. We were in 2nd grade as I recall.)

Can a 10 year really understand yet how sheer fate and a complex set of variables could make a beating turn out to be no big deal or a medical nightmare?

I suspect the answer is no, which is why I do not like the idea of juvenile hall (along with what 2 others have pointed out about how that is not a good place for any kid to spend time since it is just a training ground for far worse.)

I am trying very hard to be short and sweet. But it is hard... Let me put it like this so that folks can understand:

If these little girls were my kids and I found out that they did this... Hayle, they'd wish they could be sent to Juvenile Hall when I got through with them...

I would take them to see the sick who cannot control their bowel movements... And they would have to clean out bed pans...

'Cuz if they were my kids, I brought into this world, I can dayum sho take them out and make new ones just like them...

Short and sweet- and the right answer I think.

I think one thing that gets lost here is the guilt that the attacking kids will feel when they do far more damage than they thought.

That is better handled at home than dumping them in a strange environment and making them feel abandoned. Tough love is still love- and parents do that better than the penal system.

But it sounds like these kids do not have that parental direction... That guilt was not a factor in their minds when they acted out in rage and someone was hurt.

See, anger is a strong emotion. It makes one feel invincible, indestructible. One can have strength and energy from it--negative energy--but for the energy-less, it will do... The trick about anger though and acting on it, its energy can be dissipated RAPIDLY--it is a quick fix, a band-aid--a fast road to to perdition that never leads to peace and never to love. SLOW to anger... It is the person who can control that impulse that makes the difference...

The thing is it takes wisdom, sage, age, experiences, thoughtfulness, faith, hope and love...

I think folks, children, resort to anger and hate because they are easy emotions it is a primeval survival tactic. All of us have to be better than that...

As far as these kids, I had more fear of Mom than God... God was my savior. Mom, the disciplinarian. Dad on the other hand... All conversations were over when Dad got involved...

Same here with my Dad.

And while I agree with what you are saying, the big question becomes what happens when there is no Mom or Dad around to administer the tough love?

I really do think that a kid who feels alone in the world and turns to violence will be very unlikely to change from that course if they are just dumped in jail. That merely justifies their resorting to being "tough" as the only way to survive and have a sense of security.

The discussion I think needs to happen is this- "Who becomes the parent figure in the lives of kids who get in trouble and do not have birth parents willing to fill that role?"

And in that comes a multitude of secondary questions. What are the standards, if any? How can we be sure case by case evaluations are fair and accurate? Let's face it, a poor African-American child is far more likely to be considered "lost" than some wealthy white kid who commits an act of similar gravity.

Child neglect and mistreatment is such a hot button issue with me that I am not always able to discuss it rationally. I don't know why that is since I had a pretty good upbringing, but it gets to me.

I just turned off the TV and I was watching a forum discussion on race on MSNBC. During that forum, one of the participants told the story of a young African-American male who was in court for something he had done and the judge was telling him that he was lucky to be just 2 months shy of 16 since it meant he would go to juvie instead of being at risk for going to prison.

The young man replied that he didn't care where he went as long as it was not home.

That is terrifying.

And it is all the more worrisome given how American society is evolving. For the forseeable future, the US is becoming a country of enormous wealth and leadership driven by labor provided outside of the US.

This just widens the gap between the rich and the poor, and shrinks the middle class.

And in turn, that makes youth who make one mistake or are not raised by good parents all the more likely to fall into a position where they can never get ahead no matter how smart, ambitious or genuinely "good" they are.

Well, what you have just described has been going on for over 20 years in destitute neighborhoods... No responsible adult to administer love: be it tough or otherwise.

Video games. The internet. Myspace. Perverts. Hustlers. Pimps. Hos. Jerry Springer. Dope Dealers. Crack Addicts. Gamblers. Pedophiles. Those are the folks eager to take these children and destroy them...

Standards as parents? There are parenting classes. But you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink... If DSHS takes your kids away, you have to take some level of parenting classes. It would be nice to not have stressors in your life when one's poor. But, these booterrific problems have a way compounding...

As far as saying race: I don't really agree with all that. There are a bunch of problems with everybody's kids these days. Maybe the rich parents can get their kids out of trouble better than a poor parent(s). But the dividing line is less and less about race than it is about economics... Unfortunately, I am not deluded to think that 70%+ of the poor people are of various ethnic groups that have a darker complexion. But, where I am, I see similar kid problems everybody's community.


Well. This was how it was in 1992 before the LA Riots... I have heard this talk. There might be baptism by fire at higher stakes... I don't know. Kids have given up because how do you teach a child hope who have never seen any hope?

I think that NO ONE can compete with United States ingenuity. Folks cannot bootleg that, it cannot be outsourced, and it is all of us who engender the true nature of our American heritage and its founding--the only word I can come up with is ingenuity. That is not seen in other countries and even if they tried, it still would not taste right--like an Apple Pie, BBQ or hayle veggie burger ( ;) )...

Somehow, our connection to our children will be improved for all children. It might take a rooting out of the old and the coming in with the new. Or it may mean that we try something we don't like--i.e. military support--what are our wounded, but healed soldiers doing with their lives now? I am sure if asked they might step up and make many of kids proud... At least that has been my experience and opinion.

Hi AKA Monet,

When I mentioned standards- I was talking about the standards by which the government would decide when a child should be removed. I do think economics could end up playing an unfair role in that- hence my concern.

And fair point of you to note that this is an economic issue in general more than racial. I agree. The hypothetical I posed was driven in large part by the fact African-American status, on average, in the US is highly tied to economics, and not in a good way.

But most importantly, I love the hint of optimism in your posts on topics like this. It is very contagious- and thankfully so.

I think they should get stayed adjudication - make them spend a week in juvie (this seems like YEARS to kids that age) and do 100 hours of community service. If they go the next year passing all their classes with Cs or better, do the service, and otherwise stay out of trouble, nothing goes on their record. They eff up again, and they're going to have the adjudication on their record and do some more time in juvie.

While we are at it, let's take their 360's and PS3s from them and make them go out and play like normal kids too....


Let me ask...on a serious note....does anyone think that because kids absorb so much from the media nowadays (games, movies and tv) that it has stopped them from being on a high creative level and with the lack of actually playing with others, or joining in of simple social activities that this in part is giving a rise to the number of violent children?


i mean, that pent up energy sitting in from of the tube has to go somewhere....

Some Singapore caning wouldn't hurt either

A good question. The older I get, the more I resist the urge to talk about "the good old days" because I see that the state of life of each generation is so very different, with the differences becoming greater as technological advances accelerate. And for all the new perils that arise, there are also great advantages.

When I was growing up, the Apple IIe and Atari 5200 were the rage at a time when I was old enough to be able to play video games or use computers.

And back then, there were plenty of kids who played sports and avoided computers, and also plenty of kids who thrived on the arcades or on early versions of home video games.

But the majority fell somewhere in the middle- doing some of both.

I suspect there has always been a large segment of the population who are socially challenged, but in the internet age they are a lot more visible.

20 years ago- even 15 years ago- places like GreekChat did not exist. There was no completely democratic form of instant communication available to virtually everyone and visible by so many people.

And to make matters worse, a great many of the people who spend a LOT of time on the internet are those socially inept people. Those with full and rewarding lives are not going to spend hours a day on the internet.

There is the media to consider as well. Now that we have several 24 hour news stations making news into a profit business instead of a public service, we hear about all these really extreme stories.

In the wake of Columbine, there were several articles published showing that statistically speaking school shootings have been at a fairly constant level since the late 1800s.

But with all the media exposure now- Columbine became a story that was played up to create the illusion that school shootings were a new and dangerous phenomenon. Granted Columbine itself was an unusually grave situation, but that is not the same as using it to create the notion it was a sign of disaster in the newest generation of school children instead of just another isolated incident that is part of life.

My grandfather- a veteran of WWII and Korea- told me there were PLENTY of draft dodgers and drug addicts in those wars. But the media access to battlefields was different then and the wars were not as controversial as Vietnam- and so while there was certainly a more centralized effort to dodge the draft with Vietnam, the image of Vietnam compared to other wars regarding these issues is also more than a little skewed.

Long story short- I think technology just makes us more aware of the world at large, and a profit-driven media is going to bring us the most sensational and off the wall stories there are. And they are also going to invite political advocates and think-tank employees to talk about those incidents and portray them as signs of a negative trend in order to drum up support for political agendas.

This is why I pretty much only watch CNBC during market trading hours and sometimes Lou Dobbs after that. Even those broadcasts are tainted, but the rest are largely designed to inspire anger and emotion that is just not helpful or accurate.

I think that the authorities have a standard. But what would cause our children to make the conscious choice to pursue a violent act versus a collaborative supportive act of kindness? Because anger is an easier emotion to access and more viscerally empowering than to remain in solace and respond is transcendence and compassion...

It all comes down to the money or the value we place on those attachments that draw us an addiction to it... Some adults cannot triumph over their addictions, so how can we expect children to do so or to know the difference?

Thank you for the kind comment. I hope this civilized discussion can continue so that we can learn from each other rather than being "snarky"... ;)

I totally agree. I know when my cousins and I were little we spend hours just outside playing hide and seek, football, or any little game we found. My cousins had a Sega Genesis and I had the NES (and then later the Super NES) but we seriously played those for like 15 minutes---they bored us.

Now I see my younger cousins (who range in age from 6-13) and all they do is watch TV, stay on the computer, or play video games. Its ridiculous that they can't go outside and play, or ride their bikes for more than 3-5 minutes.

You know it's sad when some of us havent hit 45 and we are already referring it to 'the good old days'


before I pop off anbother long assed post...pop over to the Alicia Keys thread....part of what you said is echod in that.

If they are going to act like delinquents they should be treated like delinquents.

If you don't punish them you are sending the message that there are no consequences.

I know lots of people would disagree, but that's how i feel about it.