Pledge possibly lying about military service..
 

We've had a pledge in our house for several months now and he's a great friend of mine. He's a stand up guy, respectful, intelligent, funny, etc. Personally one of the most interesting people i've met in college. One of things that our chapter really liked about him was that he had served tours in Iraq and Afghanistan which we hold very highly in our house. Our chapter has many veterans and our national fraternity itself was founded by Cadets at Virginia Military Institute.

Today I was speaking with a classmate who was in ROTC with our pledge at one point. When I brought up the pledge's name he began laughing and said that he was joke in ROTC and is lying about ever being in the military at all. Also that the ROTC students hate him for lying about his service. According to this kid our pledge completely fabricated his entire experience in the military. Many of the points the ROTC member made began to make sense the more i thought about it and i became suspicious.

Honestly I want to believe our pledge and at this point I do. Right now it's one person's word against one of my close friend's. I'm really looking for advice on a way to find out if this has any truth in it other than asking him directly; which i would feel could be the most disrespectful thing EVER to do to a vet.

This is a situation i've never even fathomed dealing with and i'd appreciate any help you can get me.

I would call your local VA office, explain the situation and see if they can help you out. You won't have any peace of mind until you do, but I agree, asking him and then having him really be a vet would be horrible. However, if he's lying to you he could be lying in other situations (where veteran status could get him advantages your average person wouldn't be entitled to). Good luck and I hope everything turns out OK.

I'd drop him if this can be confirmed. In my mind, it shouldn't take much to drop a pledge. This seems to be something indicating that this fella is a pathological liar. I've known pledges like this as well. Don't worry about it, just drop him. These sorts have a way of "turning" on you after awhile. They can keep up this charade of normalcy for awhile, then they'll go off the deep end.

Just drop him. No pledge should ever cause the house any sort of drama. I agree with you regarding the military service issue as my organization as you probably well know has its ties to VMI as well.

First, if you haven't done this already, have a meeting with your chapter's brothers and tell them about what you've heard about this particular pledge.

Second, have another meeting with the pledge, yourself, the pledge educator, and your chapter president. Give the pledge an opportunity to explain himself, and tell his side of the story. If possible, ask for documented proof that he is in the military, like a military ID card, all servicepeople should
have one.

Third, If you find that the pledge has lied about his service record, discuss, amongst your chapter brothers, possible repercussions for the pledge. This can range from giving him the opportunity to redeem himself in his pledgeship all the way down to his being dropped from the pledge program.

Fourth, reach an agreement with your pledge brothers about what to do with regards to the pledge. Call the pledge back into a meeting with his pledge educator, yourself, the chapter president, etc. and notify him of your decision.

*I know you stated that you didn't want to confront the pledge to his face, but there's no way, that I know of, that you can legally access someone's service record without their knowledge.

I would say, first get the facts. There's no sense in starting out by spreading rumors about the pledge. If it turns out he's lying then go to your brothers.

Best of luck with this. It's a tough one.

i haven't revealed it to any other brothers yet because word spreads and i'd hate to give this kid a bad reputation and find out he's legit.

Keep in mind this information may be confidential, and you may need to explain why it is needed.

Black ball him just for the heckuvit

Only Active Duty will still have an ID card (or reservist) but he should have his formal discharge or release papers. Maybe ask to see his photos from Iraq and see if he is in green BDU's or tan Dessert Camo (which he would be in if he was there). Ask where he was commissioned (if he was a ROTC officer) or where he did Basic Training (if he was enlisted). Find out what unit he was in. Most college ROTC websites have photos or press releases of the kids that just got commissioned. Maybe he quit ROTC and just enlisted? See if his timeline is feasible.

Ask for his DD214.

i agree with leslie anne-don't say anything to anyone else until you truly know the facts. it sounds like you are trying to do the right thing and are taking your time to get it right.

Would this guy be in ROTC if he had already served? I thought ROTC was for PRE-service?

I never knew this phrase existed until GC.

He could be doing a Green-to-Gold program. This is a program for outstanding junior enlisted and young NCOs to obtain their BA/BS and a commission as a O-1.

If he claims he is a vet ask him to show you his DD 214, Discharge Papers and Separation Documents.

enlisted service personnel can go to college and participate in ROTC. my brother knew several men who had prior service as enlisted personnel in his ROTC program in college.

I disagree with every single piece of this advice.

1. There is no point in starting drama with the other brothers in case he is legit.

2. No need in starting unnecessary drama between the pledge and this guy if he is legit. If everything is confirmed true, you can always go to this guy and tell him that you have confirmation and to stop talking shit.

3. There are absolutely NO repercussions for this kind of act, except immediate dismissal. If they can lie about that, they will lie about anything. If you've ever been involved with a pathological liar, you'd (in general) know.

I agree with your assessment. I'm just not sure how you're going to get the real information about the guys service without risking a little drama in a confrontation with the pledge. I really wonder what the ROTC guys know.

Is there a chapter advisor who can confer with the head of the ROTC program on behalf of the chapter?

I agree to keep it very confidential until any action, if any, is taken. Don't start a storm of gossip - which no doubt will spread beyond the chapter - and threaten the integrity of your group.

Each college will have a Colonel or LT Colonel in charge of the ROTC program who would know the cadets but the Captain is the one who deals with them daily. Go over to the ROTC building and ask to speak to one of the Active Duty officers. I didn't realize it was your college he had been in ROTC at, or was it? The ROTC guys could just be talking "smack" b/c they don't like him.

Maybe sit down and start asking him general questions about his "military service". Where he did boot camp? Where he was stationed overseas? What his MOS is? Ask to see pictures from him overseas. Now I'm not saying just automatically believe everything he says (because if he is in fact lying about the service he has done he might have "everything else" picked out and planned to keep up the lie, or he might be telling the truth).

The reason I say question him, is you can really gauge his responses. I mean someone who did boot camp isn't going to forget where they did (especially someone at his age). They aren't going to forget their MOS. They aren't going to forget where they were stationed overseas.

I definately agree that you should ask to see his release papers.

Liars... they exist
 

A girl I knew dated a guy who pretended to have cancer, and be on the verge of dying... which is sick, because her father died of cancer. Anyway, he kept up that lie pretty well for the two years they were dating. It was pretty weird finding out it wasn't true after all that time! He also spent a lot of time pretending to be super wealthy, buying her lavish gifts and whatnot, but it turned out he was actually accumulating lots of debt in her name.

Then we saw him on the news... he had a whole OTHER secret fake life where he was pretending be be a veteran from Iraq. He would wear all this military garb around, had a fake ID, and so forth. Even his mother was in on it! All their neighbors thought he was a veteran. Turned out he was just scamming people, cashing in on freebies, discounts, etc.

You read my mind. As someone who did serve over in Iraq for the military-I would say that if he can't produce a DD214, he's lying. If he's out of the military now, he may no longer have his ID card-so you can't always go by that. In fact, if your ID card expires-it's either supposed to be taken from you or shredded and thrown out.

As far as pics in his BDUs-be careful of that because if anyone wanted to lie about it-it's easy to buy desert camis (or borrow them) and take pictures of yourself in the desert (Arizona, etc.) if you really wanted to try this-trust me when I say-you'd be surprised the things people will do...

If he is still in college (undergraduate), chances are (unless he went to a 2-year military school where they commission you before you go to your 4-year institution or you completed OCS) he is not a commissioned officer.

Unless he calls the VA himself, no one is going to tell you any of his information. Besides, why would someone call the VA and say, "Hey-was I in the military?" Even if you try and call for records-please remember that the military isn't always too good about having everything. Thankfully I have made copies of all my things because I've called the VA hospital and unless I personally went to that specific hospital-they had no information on me.

Anyone can lie and say they went to a certain basic training or AIT but, just ask him what his AKO email address (Army Knowledge On-line) or NKO (Navy)...not sure about the other services-sorry. I'm sure Military Wife will agree that these are some good ideas to find out. Maybe those other cadets were jerks to the guy and thought they were better because they didn't go enlisted first-that happens alot too....

Give him the benefit of the doubt because if he's a decent guy-maybe people are just talking trash on him. Good Luck!

That's horrible that people can so easily lie to people. It reminds me of that book where the writer just came out and said the experiences during the Holocaust never happened to her-it was made up. That's really offensive! WTF? Who LIES about the Holocaust? I hope she sleeps well at night or has no problem looking herself in the mirror the next morning because I know I never could if I did something like that!

Anyway-back on to topic. Hope he's not a liar. Good luck!

As a child of a Vietnam War Veteran, I saw my father come across at least 1 guy who was lying about service during Nam. It turned out the one guy went as far as purchasing a purple heart from an estate auction (I still can't believe an auction would auction off a veteran's purple heart!) and had dog tags made. What made my father and other nam vets suspicious of this guy was that when they started asking questions, this guy just couldn't keep his stories straight -- one day he would say he was stationed one place, the next day some other place. Eventually the lies crumbled around him and he was outed.

I hope that this guy isn't lying. That the ROTC guys are just bitter or caught up in the rumor mill.

Have your advisor talk to someone high up in ROTC, either to see if they can help obtaining the truth or at least squash the rumor.

You see...i'm trying to be discrete about this so i think demanding his discharge papers may be a little forward and suggestive that i question his service. I'm going to be speaking with the ROTC member tomorrow to check up on things. But i guess what our pledge was doing was taking ROTC to get his BA and then enlisting to go career? i'm not entirely sure.

If you want to be discreet (math is discrete) about this, then why not ask him for discharge papers or any other military-related form and say that you need it for the fraternity's records for any kind of report?

HUH??? You don't "take" ROTC and then become enlisted. First of all, you sign an actual legal commitment paper when you join ROTC (B/C they are paying for your college and you owe time in service after graduation). So, if he graduates thru ROTC he will be commissioned as a 2nd lieutenant, not an enlisted man. I'm still confused, is he currently in the ROTC program at your college?

"Hey, Bob, I need help. I keep hearing rumors that may come back to bite you, about your military service. Will you show me your DD214 so I can absolutely, positively look them in the eye and tell them to leave my brother alone?"

You want to do this for him, right?

If it is just for your own edification, you are right to leave it alone. Then you would be satisfying your own curiosity, not helping a brother.

Oh my god, I don't believe it and I almost hate to admit it, but I absolutely, 100% agree with DGTess. Marker!

I think the OP is more concerned that his chapter has a pledge who is a pathological liar rather than satisying his curiosity. Serving in the military is a pretty serious thing to lie about.

He MAY have done some prior service. It IS true that some of the fresh-out-of-high-school cadets at the federal service academies AND the ROTC programs look askance at the prior enlisted men. My H was a professor at one of the federal service academies and was a commander as a company and field grade officer. While he respected the fact that these prior-service cadets moved up out of the enlisted ranksand obviously excelled militarily, many of them couldn't handle the academic rigors of the academies. I can't speak for ROTC but it probably would vary upon the academics of the specific major and of course college/university.

Who Cares?
 

Would you ask any other pledge to furnish proof of prior employment?

Is he a good pledge? Does he get along with everyone? If he'd make a good brother, don't worry about it. Call him up to a standards meeting, tell him what was said and give him a chance to explain.

I'm not defending someone who lies, or discounting that someone who lies about something may lie about something else-- something that could affect the reputation or integrity of the chapter. But if your whole reason for pledging this guy was so you could say "We have a war vet in our chapter," that's weak. I'm as much for recruiting the best members, and you want certain bragging rights, but I would hope there was more to this guy than just his work record that compelled you to bid him.

I've no doubt your other members have embellished their accomplishments or lied about things before-- would this make-or-break their membership?

Umm, wow, no, you are really on the wrong path here. There's a difference between saying "I was dating 3 girls at a time!" (when 2 of them were imaginary) and lying about ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY SERVICE. That's a big big BIG deal. That's kind of like saying your parents are dead when they're not.

And I don't think that scoobis said at all that they ONLY bid him because he was a vet - rather that it was one of the many things they liked about him. But if he's been trading on this as a way to get to know people and it's not real, it's certainly not the fraternity that should be chastised.

Someone who would lie about something this big, I wouldn't trust any further than I could throw him, and I certainly wouldn't want him in my Greek organization.

What does it matter if he's a good pledge? If he lied, then HE LIED.

And just confronting him... pathological liars will keep lying. Do you really think he'd just come out and be like "yeah I lied about my duty". Screw that.

I can't speak for all Army ROTC units; but we have a good number of prior service soldiers in our battalion. As was pointed out already, it is possible for an active-duty enlisted solider (via the Green-to-Gold program) or a prior service solider to enroll in ROTC to earn their degree and an officer commission.

Also, some cadets participate in the SMP program. SMP is the Simultaneous Membership Program where cadets can sign up for the US Army Reserves or National Guard while being in school. SMP members must enlist, attend basic training and possibly attend Advanced Individual Training - that makes them "real" soldiers and they have to attend drill on the weekends. Though, they earn benefits/financial aid and they do not deploy while in school for ROTC.

Based on the information scoobis provides, this pledge's circumstances sound suspicious. Without more information, I don't understand how he could have been in ROTC, dropped out, served two tours in Afghanistan and Iraq (usually at 7-18 mos a piece for the Army) and managed to come back to school so quickly (because other students apparently still know him).

For this story to make any sense, the pledge would have to be a prior enlisted soldier who served in the war, THEN went to college, tried ROTC to possibly get a commission, then dropped out, then decided to pledge a fraternity. If this is the case, he should either have a DD-214 discharge document because he'd be out of the service now or he'd have a military ID because he'd be completing his active duty or reserve obligations.

How old is this guy?
What years did he go to the Middle East?
What years did he participate in ROTC?

He couldn't have completed ROTC because, in order to earn a commission, one needs to have a bachelor's degree. I'm assuming that, if he's in college and pledging and whatnot, that he's an undergrad.

Again, I can only comment on my own personal experiences; however, in all the years I have worked with Army, Navy/Marine and Air Force ROTC, I can say that I have never heard a cadet "talk smack" in this manner about another cadet who has served/deployed. In fact, being an SMP or prior service cadet is not looked down upon, it's almost considered 'cool' to have gotten a head start on their military career. Even cadets have pride in their ROTC "service" and they are looking forward to their active or reserve duty.

If this pledge's personality was so terribly awkward (which would be in contrast to scoobis' glowing description of him) then I could see a cadet saying, "Yeah, Billy Bob was a total dope and washed out of the ROTC program". HOWEVER, I would be VERY shocked and surprised if a cadet would lie to scoobis and say "Billy Bob never even served in the military at all. He's making everything up; it's all a lie." One solider may not like another...but he sure as hell wouldn't say something like *that* just to be spiteful.

I've already been long-winded in this post; so I'll stop prattling on. Suffice it to say that I am suspicious of this pledge's integrity based on the information given and what I know about ROTC and military service. Either he needs to let it go and hope that this guy isn't a pathological liar; ask the ROTC staff if they have any insight; or, as DGTess suggests, just come right out and ask the guy why his former ROTC colleagues would be saying something like that.

.....Kelly :)

Ok...I just talked to one of my Army colleagues and he says that the guy should have a DD-214 if he's out or, if he's Army, an ERB (Enlisted Record Brief, will show his deployments) if he's still in. If he doesn't have one of those two things, he's very likely a liar.

The catch, of course, is working up the nerve to confront a friend. :( I wouldn't want to call-out a vet either only to find out that he's legit. Though, for me, lying about military service is much worse than asking a vet to produce a DD-214 in order to help protect his integrity. I'd like to think that, if the pledge has served our country, then he would understand and wouldn't want anyone making false claims either.

.....Kelly :)

33girl, I was going to say all of that but you beat me to it. Also if he lies about being in the military then he would lie about anything. Would you really have trust for someone like that? I couldn't. There would be no trust. He can't be no Brother if he lacks trust from the Brotherhood for being a liar, especially a lie like that. How could you trust him with your Fraternity secrets? But to the person who posted this, I would sit down with the guy and tell him what you heard. Do some investigating. I know that at my school you can actually go to greek affairs to find out if a pledge or any incoming students interested in greek life were in the military. If he was not, then he has got to go.

Actually, this guy does not have to be a college "graduate" to become an officer. In fact, you only need 90 credits to become an officer but, before you try to become a Captain-you must have your Bachelor's by then.

He may have also done the OCS program (Officer Candidate School). You can be in the military like the Guard and go to school while one-weekend-a-month going to your OCS station. There is an accelerated program and a traditional program (which I think trad. takes 2-3 years, whereas the acc. program is pretty quick).

I also joined the military when I was 17 (with permission of my parents-signing). I went to basic between training between the end of my junior year and the beginning of my senior year in high school and later went to AIT the summer after I graduated high school. I was in college for a semester (in 2002) before I was called up to serve in Iraq. When deployments first started (when I went) in 2003, they didn't always last a full year. In fact, I was deployed for a total of 9 months. I served 2 in the states training up to go with my unit, 1 month in Kuwait and 6 months in Iraq. I later returned to school in 2004 (since by the time I returned, in October 2003 the semester was already in session). I still remembered everyone-and they remembered me. So, it is quite possible for your brother to have had an experience like mine.

I even joined the ROTC program but, still did drills with my unit one state over (4-hour trip one way) since I had gone overseas with them-they put me in a special MI program. Between receiving my Associate's, 2-Bachelor's Degrees and a minor, along with all my other involvement in school (not to mention my sorority) and my military service during that time--I chose not to stick with ROTC. I liked the program but, I was unsure what I wanted to do with myself after graduation. Maybe your brother is in the same boat. So, yes it is possible he did serve and did do ROTC but, it became too much for him (especially-if he is like me and pays his own way without the financial help of his family).

Give him the benefit of the doubt but, def. talk to him. No one deserves to be lied to whether it's about dating a million and one girls or being in the military because it's about respect. You should respect your friends and your brothers / sisters.....

Two things.

It will be too easy to get accurate info. Like it was already suggested, just go talk or send a friendly email to his Battalion CDR. The email address will be on the school's rotc homepage. Tell him your concerns, and point out that you need this info because it's an integrity check.

Second, again like someone pointed out, if this guy is lying about his service-DROP his ass before it is too late. He may keep up appearances for awhile, but eventually his lying will catch up and by that time it will be too late.