Openly Gay Members
 

Alright, so I was wondering everybody's take on this subject matter. Basically, long story short, we have a candidate who's going through the candidate process this semester and he's openly gay. I mean, the guy's really great, he's active in everything, helps out all the time, played football in HS so is great in intermurals, etc, etc, etc. So, I mean, he's just an all around great guy, otherwise we would never have extended a bid. (just because we're small doesn't mean we take everyone)

My only concern is what effect that might have on future potentials. I mean, we don't have a problem with it... but, it is Mississippi. Obviously we'd never kick the guy out or even say it might even remotely be a problem; however, the possibility is still there.

Has anybody else have/had this issue come up in your own chapters?

We had this situation before too (though he ended up quitting half way through). We basically said if potentials have a problem if/when he does cross over then they aren't people we want in our house. We pride ourselves on the diversity within the house.

We had at least one closeted homosexual when I was active -- probably more.

Our active chapter recently had a guy come out. As far as I know, it hasn't effected anything at all. Edmond, Oklahoma is probably as conservative as anywhere in Mississippi.

Well we have two openly gay brothers at my chapter (then again it's the San Francisco Bay Area so it's considered normal here) with no problems at all.

Just remember the oath you took and remember what Sigma Nu stands for. Is it Honorable to depledge him based on something he can't change? Is it Honorable to bow to what other people think if what they think is wrong?

I guess just try and think about what the Honorable thing to do is.

Alright, thanks for the input... I mean, the guy's great... actually, if it wasn't for me dragging him into a meeting I don't think he'd ever pledge anywhere (was too afraid of what might go on and all). ...and, I must admit, if we did the whole big/little at my chapter here, I'd definitely want the guy as my little.

It's just one of those things where there's the personal side of something...and then there's the business side of it. Personally, like I stated while voting on bidding, "If anybody says anything about this guy's being gay, lets go outside and I'll beat your ass." ...but, on the flipside, I still have to try and think about all that. ...then again, when you're the first "traditionally white" fraternity to integrate and have non-white members, what's with going further? haha

crash/

Not like integrating based on race and ethnicity is exactly the same as integrating based on sexual orientation, but I see your point about inclusion. :) Your fraternity and maybe your chapter (depending on how old and big your chapter is) have always had gay members--this is just the first openly gay member at your chapter. That puts it all in perspective.

The business is all the same, of course. With the personal, just be careful about making heterocentric and bigoted comments that a lot of people make because they assume they are surrounded by heterosexuals all the time.

Lastly, this guy's open homosexuality is more than likely no different than your open heterosexuality. As long as he isn't trying to be flamboyant with it, it won't be an issue. Flamboyant heterosexuality and flamboyant homosexuality are both annoying because it confuses sexuality with masculinity and is basically trying waaaaay too hard.

Good luck! :D

/crash

That's more spot on than you give yourself credit for. Sigma Nu does have a bit of a checkered history when it comes to inclusiveness.

Looking at some of my own old posts, I don't know how I'd have dealt with this situation. My concerns (rush) would have been there, but on my campus, at the time, ACACIA had a few members come out. This garnered them a lot of negative attention. For example, my younger brother, an ATO, was quite proud of himself for taking part in a "prank" where the ATO's spraypainted rainbows onto a fence on the ACACIAs' property which turned out towards a major road. Despite that negative attention, however, ACACIA is still, as far as I know, the largest fraternity on my campus.

I think this reputation for inclusiveness gained them more pledges than they lost.

Also, as an epilogue to that little story, ATO lost its charter last year, probably due to hazing, alcohol violations, low membership, or a combination of those three things. I was pretty glad to see them go. They had been the sole reason our campus turned super dry in my second year of school (had a pledge pass out in the middle of the road, getting run over during a weekend camping trip/haze-fest).

/crashing
From a girl in a sorority.... when I was in school, we knew several members of "top" fraternities that were openly gay. It didn't matter to us.

They were typically very active in Student Government, were on the Homecoming Court and were all-around strong members of their houses (many were chapter presidents). Girls loved them because they were always great dates to formals or felt they could confide in them if they had a "crush" in the house.

Unless you think he is a deadbeat, I would stress the important things that he could contribute to the chapter. Would it be any different if he was heterosexual but dated only girls that had pink hair and tatoos over her body?

This gets us further into a great topic that is a huge hijack. :) I'm sure we've discussed homosexuality in our organizations on GC over the years. Maybe it's time for an updated thread to see how progressive (in practice, not just theory) folks have become over the years. :)

We never had an openly gay active member.

Now, once alumni status was reached, 1 or 2 have come out of the closet. It sucks, but the way most campuses work is once you become the "gay house" you are stuck with that label and it hurts the chapter usually.

Well then again I'm in California and I know of a gay Kappa Sig, and I'm pretty sure there are others on campus as well.

Diversity is the only way you'll survive as a Greek org in my neck of the woods. The best way to get members is to look in every corner and recruit guys of all colors and cultures...as long as they aren't deadbeats or shady

HX chapter has a few openly gay and a few not-openly gay brothers. I've found that out of the many guys I've seen come through this chapter since 2005, they have been some of our most productive, helpful, and dedicated members.

Our chapter enjoys its diversity.

One rather funny incident though... Events Management in our student center double booked our open-mic night Rush event with ODU-OUT's Open-mic night (ODU-OUT is a support org for GLBT students). We were fine with this... they were not. We've actually co-sponsored events with them in the past, but their new leadership is REALLLLY anti-Greek to the point that it's almost laughable.

Anyways, one of our brothers who is openly gay introduced himself on stage, in letters, saying: "Hi everyone... My name is ***** of the Sigma Nu fraternity, and you CAN be queer and go Greek!" *crowd uproar from the ODU-OUT audience members* "I know, because I AM GAY. I have a poem to read..."

You guys should have seen the looks on their faces. They've been nicer about the Greek-bashing since then.


Also, there was an incident involving lawyers with one of our candidates that we refused to initiate. He wasn't openly gay, and no one knew he was gay... but he felt as though he was being persecuted. In actuality, he skipped out on the check a few times when eating out with brothers, adding up to ~$60 in the end, which he lied about later, and was also outwardly rude to most of the other candidates and brothers. We denied him for the 2nd semester in a row. He lost a lot of money on those lawyers he hired, I bet.

Really? He filed an anti-discrimination suit?? Oh wow.. I'm really surprised a lawyer even took that case. If they did, surely they didn't actually file anything with the court.

As long as you don't keep minutes and vote counts for new member votes, you should be in the clear. I'm not a huge fan of discrimination based on something someone can't control, but I'm even less of a fan of force feeding a chapter "diversity" at the expense of their autonomy and freedom.

I don't know, most of our brothers are super into diversity...seeing it as our biggest strength etc. etc. I don't really take much value in the diversity stuff. To me it's a non-issue, it doesn't bother me but it doesn't make me like my chapter any better.

As for the incident at Old Dominion......don't you think it's funny that the President of ODU-OUT is HIMSELF a discriminator?! I guess it's still politically correct to hate on greeks!

Im an openly gay guy in a fraternity and i know that most of the men who join ours are well aware of it, i say that if you have members that have a problem with it and all your brothers are ok with it, your brotherhood should be strong enough to say, we dont want this guy in our fraternity if he is going to treat our brother like this, i know thats how my chapter functions, its alot more interesting being in the bible belt though ;)

Im going to give you something to think about Beta here had 3 gay guys and they were quickly referred to as Betcha Date a GUY, the rep still hasnt gone away. It has been 10 years. My advice is don't lose out on great guys in the future because someone is trying to make a statement, one of our symbols is the book think about it.

Getting mine one day at a time.
LTH

I think culturally, in Edmond, OK, we are somewhat similar to Knoxville -- maybe not as Southern, but definitely as conservative. 10 years ago, I thought the same thing, and essentially, it was true. Acacia rushed a bunch of gay guys and since then has gone from around 80 to around 35 or so. I figured that freshmen pledges from conservative backgrounds weren't going to accept gays in the membership.

I think I was probably right 10 years ago. I'm certain that I'm wrong today. As far as I know, at least one of our members came out a few years ago. Since then, we've been doing better than ever at recruitment and have had huge success on campus, winning various contests among fraternities, getting top grades, we've had the last two consecutive student body presidents.

We can have a biblical debate as to which principles are more important, i.e, Jesus' 'one commandment' vs. the prohibitions in Romans, etc., but the bottom line, I think, is that each chapter ought to do what they feel is best. If a guy is acceptable to give a bid to or to approve for initiation, then maybe his sexuality enters into your thinking. That's up to y'all.

I'm wondering if I have anything more to contribute here, but as a gay Sigma Nu, I suppose I'd be remiss in staying quiet...

I chose to come out to my brothers shortly after my 21st birthday, the fall following my initiation, which was 5 years ago this month. The truth of the matter is, most of my brothers were already well-aware... they just wanted me to actually own it so it could become one of the things we pick at each other about... if your chapter is anything like mine, we make fun of each other WAY more than we would ever allow anyone from the outside to do. The rest of my brothers had grown to know and love me for who I am, and when they were clued in to the fact I was homosexual, many had real eye-opening and personal growing experiences. I had broken nearly all stereotypes and no one had anything negative as far as my contributions and worth as a member. That was a personal victory because I knew perceptions had changed forever in these men just by me being who I am.

Naturally, as seems the case with many homosexuals, I had classic overachiever syndrome - you feel the need to find some validation by trying to be the best at whatever it may be. As a black gay man in a predominately white fraternity, I was in hyper mode - which in my tenure as an active worked wonders for our name on campus. Orientation Staff leader, student government executive, SOCIAL CHAIRMAN (my one true calling, I think), etc.. I helped really get Sigma Nu's name was out there... all positive. Kind of like my fraternal shout-out to 12 million viewers of Wheel of Fortune two Fridays ago. [You're welcome. :)]

Bottom line for me: I think the overall perceptions and societal attitudes towards gays are shifting and there are great advantages to be gained from tapping into this previously untapped niche of rushees. You may not feel the need to actively recruit gays - to each his own - but if you happen to end up with one in your midst, embrace the situation, love your brother for who he is, and see the possibilities that may arise from harnessing this hidden gem.

P.S. I should have charged for my abilities in matchmaking - 3 couples married thus far... :) All a product of a friend confiding to me her interest in a brother of mine - something she would never have done with any of the other men in my house.

My response was never an attack to the gay community. In fact, I am very liberal... The point i was drawing at that at my school In eastern Tennessee that would murder our chapter. I am very sure we have had or will have gay members who never came out. However due to southern ideals a gay member would run us into the ground. I know your going to want to tell me that we can be the "First", "diverse","open", but thats now how things work in the SEC.

BTW this was said with complete respect and not meant to offend you, also if A-state is app state our chapter advisor was one of your founding fathers
Jerry Adams

Anyways thats my 2 cents

Getting mine one day at a time

LTH

How weird is it that I know this guy...or at least his brother?

Small world.

Here I am... PM me and see if I know who you're talkin about...

SNUIGC, I was wondering if we could get an update on that situation from a year and a half ago. Did you let his orientation affect your chapter's evaluation of him as a candidate? I hope you guys did the right thing.

Have you spoken with your chapter/regional advisor? I know I was in a sorority and things might be different for you guys, but either Sophomore or Junior year, we had a sister come out as gay and so our regional advisor chose to kick her out of the sorority...

That's awful.

No kidding. One of the few major things that made me very disillusioned about my group. I'm not saying KD in general, but just my chapter...

I'm actually surprised that a chapter or regional adviser has that sort of authority, but I guess sororities work very differently. That said, you probably shouldn't be airing your grievances with the decisions of your organization in a public forum. Although I'm sympathetic, I recognize that your issue is something y'all need to handle internally.

Hell, that was about 10 years ago. Since people don't know where I went to school... I was just saying because it was relevant to the topic.

You would be surprised how well some people here pay attention. Don't count on anything like that staying secret for long if you continue to post here.

It seems like almost everything you've posted is negative towards KD. Now, I know KD isn't perfect, and I have my own beefs with it, but why join a message board and really just post things about how you regret joining, etc., but then have something like KD for life in your signature? It just doesn't make sense.

Also, what you posted in this thread is likely not even the whole story (as these things tend to rarely be) and sounds more like rumor and conjecture than fact. There are a lot of factors that go into something like this and it's not right to speculate.

Sorry to the SN's for interfering in this thread, which I believe is a conversation all GLOs need to have.

Yes, I'm sorry for hijacking, SN's, but just responding.

I say thati n my signature because I am a KD and will be for life. It's like me saying that I'm proud to be a woman, though there are definitely women out there that I do not like/get along with. Same with KD. I am proud to be a part of it and the greek system in general. There were just some people in my small chapter that made my experience not what I had imagined it would be.

As far as the openly gay issue, I just wanted to stress to the SN's that they should probably ask their alumni or regional advisors. I know that it affected my chapter because I was on the exec board when the board and advisor had the meeting as to whether or not to "allow" the girl to stay in. I agree with you that conjecture and rumors fly about within greek life- but this is not one of them, as I was there.

Thanks for listening.

Less is more.

I think the idea of kicking out a brother for being gay is intolerant. We have 3 openly gay brothers in the active chapter, and the are some of the most positive guys for our chapter, all 3 have served on Exec, and have been a great asset for the chapter. This has been stated before, but I just wanted to reiterate it: Don't let this be an issue, don't miss out on guys who could do wonders for your chapter. Accept them with Love, accept the Truth about them, and live side by side with them in Honor.

LTH

Coming out during pledgeship
 

In 1986, there was a fraternity pledge at East Texas State who (and I'm using his own words here) "heard all their crap about brotherhood and thought they meant it." So he came out to his Big Brother. Immediately, the chapter had an "emergency meeting" and booted the pledge out because they were worried about their reputation for having a gay fraternity member.

Meanwhile, there were at least two other member who were gay and probably even a couple. Most everyone knew about them, but they weren't hassled because they didn't openly admit to anything.

Do situations like this still happen today, 25 years later?

Service Fraternity
 

All I can speak to is my service fraternity (Alpha Phi Omega)... Within the last 10 or so years we have had two out of the closet gay men on our board, one at large and the other representing "Region X" for which most of their chapters are in California. No guarantee of course of what would happen at an individual chapter, but if Nationals found out it would *not* be pretty.

Of course it still happens. It may not be handled as obviously as your situation, but a guy who comes out in a conservative chapter could suddenly find himself in front of standards board for what would normally be minor infractions.

I'm hoping these cases are few and far between, but we're talking about an age group that still sees the "right" social reputation as a top priority. On some campi, getting the "gay" reputation would be social suicide.

I'd like to think one day that it won't matter, but unfortunately, we're not there yet. It's sad that some people can't just live their own lives and take care of their own marriages and not worry who their neighbour is married to.

A lot of this is crazy to me. A lot of the fraternities on our campus (in the Northeast area) have openly gay members. The fraternity's which house these members don't get a negative or gay connotation and the guys get a lot with their brothers great!

I couldn't even imagine having problems with gay brothers (or lesbian sisters)

It *really* varies from campus to campus. Here is a formula that I just came up with off the top of my head. :)

Take the number of times that your state voted for the Democratic Candidate for president in the last 5 elections. Add 2 if Gay Marriage is legal in your state. Add 3 if there is an active Gay and Lesbian group on campus. Subtract 3 if a ban on Gay Marriage has been written into the State Constitution. Subtract 5 if the University President really has to be of the same Religion as the group that started the school. Subtract 5 if the school requires you to attend chapel every week.

I think that gives a 10 for UMass-Amherst or George Washington University and a -13 for Oral Roberts University(Oklahoma) or Hyles Anderson. Of course at *both* ends of the scale you end up with some schools that ban Fraternities and Sororities... (And at Oral Roberts and Hyles Anderson you don't have to worry about what your fellow students will do if you are out of the closet, you won't be a student there anymore)

I wish it wasn't that way, but it is on many campuses. Personally I wish a person's sex life could just stay private...it's no one's business unless they want it to be anyway.

I think we get a 3. Though I'm not honestly sure if there is a ban on gay marriage in the state constitution...but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if there was.

# of times state voted for Democratic candidate: 0
Gay marriage is not legal in this state: 0
Active gay/lesbian group on campus: +3
Gay marriage ban in state constitution: 0?
University president of same religion: N/A
Chapel: N/A
(public school)

If only it was that easy.
Also-
Why is the presidential candidate weighed instead of the Gubernatorial candidate for that state?

Which State and University? I can probably figure it out. :)