Capital Punishment
 

what are your views? for or against?

i'm a bit torn on the issue. on the one hand, i think it is wrong because it is an extreme act of judgement, playing God if you will. i think it is wrong to take another person's life. but, on the other hand, it does serve as a self-defense mechanism for the country by protecting citizens from homicidal maniiacs and is easier on cost than life imprisonment. let me know what ya'll think!

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I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/confangry.gif

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/tiere/ride.gif

Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind http://www.plauder-smilies.de/nut.gif

[This message has been edited by MeezDiscreet (edited June 06, 2001).]

For it.

An eye for an eye...I think it is a good punishment, especially for those who have killed hundreds mercilessly. (Timothy McVeigh for example.)

But then the system does have its faults, b/c there are cases where innocents were killed.

And, it doesn't cost us (the taxpayers) so much money, whereas life imprisonment does.

[This message has been edited by newbie (edited June 06, 2001).]

I'm definitely for it. I don't think they give it out often enough, actually. In many other countries, there's less crime because would-be criminals are terrified of the punishment if they're caught. I don't think criminals in the U.S. fear authority enough. Maybe if we used the death penalty more often and applied it more quickly once the sentence was handed down, the crime rate would be curbed somewhat. I do understand that innocent people are wrongly imprisoned at times, and that is why we have so many checks and balances. But I feel the process is still too lengthy.

DZRose: Totally agree with you!!

Capital Punishment has been proven time and again that it is NOT a detterent to crime.

"A country's civility can be measured by how it treats it's prisoners."

Perhaps capital punishment has been proven not to deter crime but I know for a fact that, once a murderer is executed, he/she will NEVER kill or hurt anyone again. I know that you (you meaning any capital punishment opponants) will rebut this statement by saying someone who is serving life w/o posibility of parole will no hurt or kill either, but that's not 100% foolproof.

I definitely feel that some people simply cannot be rehabilitated (which is the perceived reason jails exist)and that they can no longer be allowed to be a part of society in any way, shape or form.

BTW, Lil G, please don't feel that this is an attack on you or your beliefs! Just disagreeing is all http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif


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@~Tracy~@

By the light of the lamp, by the light of the lamp, by the bright shiny light, by the light of the lamp...if you are a DeeZee, you're the best that you can be, by the bright shiny light of the lamp!

I can't say it any better than dzrose, Killarney or newbie. Do you know how much money we spend on prisoners? I heard a stat once...bottom line was, they are getting a free ride...from our hard-working paychecks!! Maybe it's not all fun and games being in prison, but it's probably more fun than what they did to their victims!

Well, I have some idea of the cost incurred with policing american society. There's a figure that estimates 4% of the workforce is involved in the justice system. Now, comparing this to other societies (such as Canada or any european nation), it's a much less lower percentage. You can almost say that this expenditure is a social program that provides employment and generates the economy.

And it seems the public is becoming increasingly willing to turn over it's responsibilities of prisons and jails over to private corporations - e.g. wackenhut.

I must however disagree with the argument that the cost of maintaining an incarcerated individual for his or her lifetime is cheaper than giving this person the death penalty. Because of appeals and the backed-up legal system, the cost is about the same or even higher if some cases.

Yes there is a small underlying incarcerated population that can't be rehabilitated...one of the greatest criminological thinkers of all time said that a lifetime of misery is far greater punishment than giving the satisfaction of ending someone's life.

Just my two cents - not an attack on your beliefs http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Lil_G (edited June 06, 2001).]

I have to say I disagree with capital punishment.

Lil G pointed out the cost of the appeal system vs. cost of lifelong imprisonment, which was one of my reasons also.

My main reason is, I hate that we put that responsibility of life onto an innocent person. (badly stated) I mean, how does the guy who does the lethal injection or the guy who throws the switch to the electric chair live with that? Even if you believe in what you are doing, over time, it's got to mess with your head. Witness the stories of all the men who did the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings either committing suicide or going crazy.

If life imprisonment really WAS life imprisonment, and we weren't letting murderers and rapists out so recreational drug users could be put in (sorry, tangent), it would teach a lesson. People in prison for murder should have to think about and talk about what they did every single day, till the day they die. In my opinion, many of the people who commit murders do it because they feel they have nothing left to lose. They would welcome death. I don't think we should let them off that easily.

I hope this makes sense cause I feel like I'm tripping over my tongue.

First some facts, then my opinion:

First - it's NOT cheaper to perform an execution. At all, ever, in any circumstance etc. Any of the current systems used (excepting Utah's archaic 'stoning' clause) are set up to pass supreme court verification for 'cruel, unusual, unfair' etc, and thus the inordinate appeals system. Plus, separate facilities for those on death row, etc - expenses add up (i didn't believe it, then i did a project on it . . . it's crazy)

Second, it's not an effective deterrent to crime. Numerous studies have been done - few criminals think about the reprocussions of their actions, and even fewer expect to be caught. Also, sure, if we kill a prisoner he won't kill again - but in most states, murder, rape, possibly even kidnapping carry life terms anyway w/out parole, so they probably won't kill either.

OK, well here's the shocker:

I'm very much FOR the death penalty - it makes sense overall, even if the 'normal' details don't necessarily add up. Since when is cost a big issue in the courts system? Judges are paid full pension until the day they die, then their families get paid for 5 to 10 more . . . ever see how much expert witnesses are paid? Also, to hell w/ deterring, b/c current methods don't work either. I support the death penalty, but not in its current form - it would require a complete overhaul, plus changes in the education of youth and rehabilitation of youth offenders, etc. But that's another story i guess . . .

OK, I don't understand then--what IS a deterrent then? Nick, I thought that retribution DID contribute to a crime decrease in California?

Obviously, our system is not working currently. Though there IS a decrease in crime, still, I don't think it is enough. I don't think it's fair that so many criminals that have killed many/raped, whatever, are allowed mostly to spend their life in prison...with access to many priviledges such as card games, TV, food, family visits, teleophone calls, etc.

Why the hell (pardon me) do they get these priviledges (even though they must earn theese priviledges first) when they have done something so unhuman, brutal?

I don't think the death penalty is used enough...if it was, maybe criminals would be less likely to commit crimes if they knew for sure that the gas chamber/electric chair would be waiting for them. Instead, the majority of criminals get access to exercise, TV, etc. when they truly don't deserve it. And also bail, parole, and the possibility (though rare) of escape from prison.

I'm not saying that ppl who stole cars, dealt drugs, etc. should get the death penalty--I mean those who killed should also be killed.

I understand that some criminals DO change, and after therapy/religion they become a changed person. But most don't...and they get out of prison, commit the same crimes, end up in prison yet AGAIN, and cost us even more money...

Sorry if I don't make any sense...I'm kinda tired. Also, I learned some facts from my Soc class about the high cost of keeping these criminals in the prisons--and it was shocking. Some crazy percentage is zapped from our taxes. But I don't have the numbers on me right now, and also, I'm not a Soc major...this is from a class that I just finished taking in HS.

[This message has been edited by newbie (edited June 07, 2001).]

So, Nick, capital punishment IS cheaper then?

Rob, Utah still stones people to death???!!! That's downright horrible!

I cannot say the Republician in me is 100% against it, but what if the jury was wrong?

You seem to think that people commit crimes by thinking about the consequences first. It NEVER happens regardless of what the consequences are. I walk in on my wife having sex with my brother and I might just shoot someone (mind you I am not married, have no brother, and can't even watch a deer get shot). You paint a picture much too rosey as well for jail - something someone could easily do because they heard it somewhere, not because they were there to see it. What you're talking about are the minimum security facilities and you have to understand that people imprisoned there commited white-collar crimes, not a brutal rape/murder. A high security penitentiary provides prisoners with a great deal of punishment including an incredibly high rate of brutal beatings and rapings at the hands of fellow inmates and prison gangs while guards turn a blind eye (search NY Times National section regarding the astonishing number of prison rape). And on top of that, prison has also changed the economic system; many prisoners do work at cheaper rates on top of providing restitution to their victims as well as providing cheap labor for the government.

And here's something to think about. By and large if you support capital punishment, you are condemning anyone who dies to death because of your support. (I believe all those nifty little trials after WWII determined that Hitler's supporters were just as guilty as he was even if they knew they'd be shot if they resisted his views.) So now we have established you are involved in sentencing someone to death. Now let's think about how many people have been given the death sentence undeservingly. In fact let's look at condemnation of the US by countries aross the world for executing those who commit crimes before reaching the age of adulthood and executing those deemed to be mentally handicapped. On top of that every year there are many prisoners released when somehow a new piece of evidence comes forth clearing them...what about those that weren't so lucky? There has to statistically be at least one so called "outlier". And statistically, certain groups and gender receive the death penalty much more than others. Well I seem to have digressed, but let's say someone innocent is executed tomorrow. By international law, you are guilty of murder and by your own views, murderers should be executed.

And you are definitely wrong about the costs of execution. They are much higher than keeping a prisoner locked up. To this day, the UN and most countries condemn us for using the death penalty. To this day other countries that do use the death penalty such as China condemn us for killing children. Sometimes when everyone in the world is telling you something, you may want to re-examine your policies.

And I don't feel you should take this to mean I am a liberal. On the contrary, I am from a very conventional Republican family and I do consistently vote on the Republican ballot. My personal view is that the death penalty should be abolished and prisons should become even more "uninviting". I do believe in corporal punishment though to some extent and feel that does get more results.

There are also many theories on crime and murder. One of the prevailing ones is centered on a natural "momentum". It's been shown in NYC that while crime numbers do come down, they level off at a point and can't be decreased. This means that other alternatives should be considered (ie, a better effort to reach out to someone and help them before they become even more criminal minded).

I do not belive in the death penalty because I don't believe in the fairness and accuracy of our judicial process.

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New York Eta #323
Buffalo State '99

Not only am I 100% for the death penalty, I am 100% for the death being carried out in the same manner that the criminal (shocking word isn't it!) killed his/her victim! Some fool here robbed a woman who was 8+ months pregnant -- he hit her in the head repeatedly, and she died a very slow death, and also the death of the child (whom the doctors determined was viable at that point) - where is he now? Sitting in the state pen for "life" -- which we all know is 25 years plus time served for "good" behavior. He has access to better recreational equipment than some of our city parks have to offer -- he has food 3 times a day plus the opportunity to buy cigarettes not to mention access to cable tv and a library -- and even the internet.

I volunteer for a battered women's shelter, and there are women and children there who by absolutely no fault of their own struggle to live each day with what the shelter can provide while the real criminal is locked up at a Motel 6! Someone please please please tell me where the justice is there?

And what the hell is up with PAYING them to do work for the community? I don't care if its a nickel on the hour -- why am I paying them for a crime they committed? A professor once asked me, when she learned how strongly I favor the death penalty, "Could you pull the switch?" -- My answer -- YES! Without a moment's hesitation. (and most of you know that I am a vegetarian and animal rights advocate so I'm not some looney on the loose wanting to kill things) -- Timothy McVeigh -- I'd be more than happy to do the honors and not blink. Susan Smith (SC mom who drowned her 2 young sons by strapping them in their car seats and driving them into a lake because her "boyfriend" didn't want to be tied down to children) -- please let me strap her in a car and drive her in a lake -- that's what she deserves.

My cousin, at 2 years old, was killed by a drunk driver - the driver got a $75 fine and a few hours community service --- that's it. She also went on to be involved in another incident also killing someone else -- no jail time. I would love to put her in a car, and hit her with such force that her head is almost completely removed from her body the way Becky's was.

But you're right -- that woman didn't do anything wrong and she must have really learned after that whopping $75 fine since she went out and killed someone else.

I don't care about cost -- the cost of a life cannot ever ever ever be compared to the cost of keeping someone alive or executing them. The real "cost" is to the families and friends who have lost everything because some idiot was stupid enough to "play God" him/her self and take a life. I think that the best prison I've ever seen documented is the one that Woody Harrelson's father is in -- they are in solitary lock-up 23 hours a day, with one hour solitary exercise. As for rapes and brutal beatings in prison? Cry me a freaking river --

If I wasn't so tired, I'd fix the way I wrote but no time, so enjoy:

First of all - I am not a sick person with some serious problems -- you come on here accusing me of not knowing the "facts" and then you turn around and do some assuming of your own...hypocrite -- look it up.

Secondly - Thank you for telling me what I am / or am not getting out of my volunteer work -- where would I be without people who don't know me and don't have a clue as to what I do for the women and children with whom I work, telling me what I do or don't get from it?

Third - your quote: "He has food 3 times a day? God forbid such a thing. I can't imagine anyone getting food 3 times a day." -- God forbid that people get to LIVE and not be MURDERED. I can't imagine anyone getting to live without some jerk who goes out and robs a store, killing the clerk, and then bases his defense on his mother didn't love him enough or some $#%@ like that!

Fourth -- I HAVE taken jail tours. I do have friends who work in the system. I know people who have been in jail. I have done the research - I actually have a Master's Degree, and one of the fields that I could have chosen was the prison system, so I had to do my research before making my career choice -- but then you and your ASSumptions wouldn't have known that, would you?

Fifth - I don't have anything in my neighborhood - I live in the country/sticks/boondocks -- call it what you will. The recreational facilities in the high crime areas are actually pretty nice - the higher-ups think that giving them an outlet for their "anger" will help lower the crime rate. Good argument on their behalf, I suppose, but I haven't had the chance to research that issue.

Sixth - when I mentioned buying cigarettes, and you said that's his money, not mine -- care to rethink that?? Hmmm - he's on a vacation on the taxpayer dollar (FIGURE of speech - please don't freak out on this one like you did the other...to be discussed next) and yet its still his money? No - its my money as a taxpayer. And as for them working? I don't care that they only make $1 an hour - that money should be going right back to pay the taxpayers for the cost of their incarceration. Why should I be paying for the crime that they chose to commit? You haven't answered that one yet.

Seventh - okay okay okay -- I forget that everyone on here in every single post always uses the exact correct terminology to discuss every little item...the "we all know" statement is an error on my part. God forbid that I would have stepped out with a figure of speech that would be taken so literally. I am eternally sorry for my use of common terminology -- but you can better believe I'll be watching out for the minute that you yourself cross the line and use any kind of statement out of general speech without complete and absolute knowledge and presence of fact.

Eigth - I am an animal rights ADVOCATE -- not ACTIVIST -- look it up. I don't support PETA because I do not support their ideals of destroying property, turning lab animals loose, blocking the roads so employees can't work, etc. -- I always make dang sure that I put the word "advocate" in there and not "activist" -- there is a difference! Thanks for noticing -- oops -- you didn't!

And yes - I do think the tone of this is that you are being a jerk because this whole time you have accused me of being presumptious, and making assumptions out of left field, but then you turn around and do it right back to me. You tell me what you "think" I've not seen -- what kind of life you "think" I lead -- how can it be okay for you to tell me what I don't know, but then turn around and say the same things to me? Unless I am mistaken, I don't know you -- I simply came on here stating my opinion. MINE - as in me, myself, and I based on what I personally know (and as I've said before, my opinion is the only one that I personally know so therefore I can only base my statements of opinion on them -- sounds like lawyer talk, huh?)

Oh, and lest I forget -- MURDERERS lose their "RIGHT" to being treated like a human, when they take away someone elses right to live.

The topic was started with "what are your views? For or against?" -- I stated that -- MY views -- and I don't think (thinking - as in my opinion) that just because someone disagrees with them (which is fine -- its fine to have your own opinion) that gives them the right to come bash me and make assumptions about my life.

Rudey,
In one place you state the prisoners are cheap labor for the governement, then (when it suits you better, I presume) you state that they work for private companies generally.

I think you are projecitng a lot of things onto someone you don't know. For instance, maybe she has seen people die. Have you? Have you been in a war? I am interested to know!

And just because someone believes in Animal Rights, does not mean they are a member of PETA or similar organizations. There are many organizations that peacefully and lawfully protect the rights of animals.

Who are you to say that someone has problems if they want revenge. Psychologically, this is very normal...not "problems" at all. You wouldn't happen to be trying to play god in your judgement, now would you??

I have no idea whether your facts about prisons are accurate. Nor am I going to take my time to verify your facts. I do know that while you ridicule the value of 3 meals a day, that is something many people do not find so easy. So, I think they are still treated too well. but, we'd have to redefine or change the Constitution that prevents cruel or unusual punishment. I think we should say it's not allowed unless the person murdered or rape in which case, they MAY be cruelly punished!

well, Rudey, I WASN'T going to check your stats, or anyone else who says cap. pun. doesn't deter criminals or save lives, BUT, I just happened to be reading Fox news.com and ran into this article. Check it out.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,26686,00.html

Although it is a controversial study, it looks like they have lots of data and the main opponent to it is the pres. of a coalition to end cap. pun. Hmm, no surprise there, of course he'll say whatever to make the study look bad.

Anyway, there is some very interesting evidence about capital punsihment saving lives!

I'm confused, what are the variables involved with this quantitative analysis? Is there more to the study than on the main page? Exactly how does it save lives, I couldn't find any explanation.

AXOalum, two things. The first is an apology. I did talk in a bad tone towards you. Please understand I didn't mean that. You were more than entitled to your view, and I think because I had a stressful week with finishing off my classes, I did act abnormally. So once again, please accept my apology. The second thing I wanted to say is that I think you misinterpreted a lot of what I said. I wouldn't doubt your compassion and care shown through volunteering. I wouldn't doubt your intelligence. I sounded like an ass the way that I talked to you...I know. I apologized for that though so can we put this all aside and in the past? Oh...and honestly, please don't look for general statements in my posts. I apologized so no animosity, if you'd like to forgive me. And if you are really interested in talking about this whole issue, I'd be more than happy to do so through email. But once again, I apologize.

SuperXO, I'll respond to what you had to say item by item.
1) PrisonBlues is a private company that hires prisoners to work for them and make denimwear. The labor is very cheap. How does the government benefit? Most of PrisonBlues sales are to the government. Hence both the government and private enterprises benefit. Does this make sense? I don't want you to think I was just switching info around to attack someone.
2) I witnessed 2 wars by the time I was 7 in two separate countries. I did make some assumptions when talking about witnessing the loss of life, but only because most people are furtonate enough not to have.
3) I gave my interpretation of someone with those feelings but not only did I give 2 but I said the second was more probable. I don't think that feelings of anger are abnormal. And I gae my interpretation, not my judgement. Playing God refers to determining whether someone lives or dies not just judging, and definitely not interpreting.
4) My intention in regards to the 3 meals a day statement: Everyone is entitled to this. I know some people aren't fortunate enough to find one meal a day, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't be entitled to basic human rights. If you are really intent on finding statistics, I will dig them up for you and email them to you. Just realize that I don't make connections between an increase in capital punishment and a decrease in crime. I have absolutely no idea about such a topic and wouldn't dare to venture a guess even. I will find statistics on how many people are executed every year, the demographics of those executed, possibly stats on early release for those who commit first degree murder, etc.

But I'd just like to apologize once more, and to say I won't discuss this further on this forum. Cool?

Wow. I think I need to read this forum two more times. LOL Yeah, I think we could all use a laugh. Why dont we work some kind of deal with Australia and see if they'd relocate to the US or back to England. Hey we could ship all of our criminals out there. At least the ones that are not on death row. Then we could bring back the gallows and the guillotine and go to town on the rapists, child molesters, and murderers. Think of some of those Reality based shows(Like the new show supposed to air on NBC where people are supposed to get covered with rats, snakes and such?) for those of you that think that hangings of death row inmates would be in bad taste. How much worse will T.V. get anyway. (By the way, I am JOKING) LOL

[This message has been edited by Miami1839 (edited June 09, 2001).]

I don't want to hurt the feelings of anyone on either side of this argument but this quote really gave me pause. We are supposed to take human rights lessons from CHINA?????

Hey all
Aganist It
I feel as though 2 wrongs don't make a right. Who's to say who's the judge to take someone's life? Whether or not it was a crime or whether it's done by a court of law.
What example are we setting by killing another. Now two lives are gone. I know many will disagree with me but it's just how I think.
It's like we go in one big circle, I kill you therefore someone else kills me. If the death penalty was making major changes in the world and the way people think. Then why is it we still have crime, murder, thieves, and other such acts?

DGPhoney~

I don't think Capital Punishment is right. It has happened that people have been wrongly accused. I know this is not the case with Timothy McVeigh. He WANTS to be executed. His shouldn't get what he wants. Do you think that those people who died in the bombing wanted to be killed? NO. They should just lock him up and throw away the key. Let him rot! Or send him to The Pit in Europe. That's even better. He doesn't deserve to get what he WANTS. He is one of the lowest forms of life in the world. Anyone can disagree with me if they want to, I don't care.

Hey Guys,

Another land mass I have in mind LOL. How about we move all the people from Alaska here and ship our criminals out there. Where its nice and cold. Even better, Iceland. But then of Iceland isnt apart of the US. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Kevin

Killarney,

You do have a point there. You know in Virginia a 16 year old can be put to death? I never knew that until I went through Juvenile Correctional Officer training here.

Kevin

an interesting thesis, combining quotes from various bodies of study:
http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html

I disagree with the final paragraph/thesis, but it's a solid collection of studies and info. Also, the links at the bottom are useful.

Killarney, it doesn't matter if China says that or not. Of course China is guilty of some of the most disgusting human rights violations spanning from repression of speech and religion to harvesting the organs of men convicted in closed door, one-day trials. If it's the fact that China said it that's bothering you, then I'm sure that the UN, Europe, and most modern countries in this world saying it might be different.

Anyway, this is a quote from the NY Times:
"With the palm of his hand, Michael S. Race pushed open the door of the Brooklyn courthouse, and there, standing under a spring sun and drawing their first breaths of freedom in 14 years, were Anthony Faison and Charles Shepherd: innocent men, home from serving time for someone else's murder. Mr. Race smiled."
Mr. Race was a detective who sent many men to prison without "following the procedures". Now he's started thinking about some of his actions, and I believe he alone has freed 5 men he helped put away. He is just one detective, in one city, in one state. If you'd like to read the rest of the article, then here's the story online: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/10/nyregion/10COP.html

And then there was the story of the incompetent lab director from, I think, Missouri (I could be wrong on this one). Her injustices were revealed this year and spanned over a decade. Prosecutors and the police force knew what was happening but refused to do anything because "she got results". If someone has the name of the lab director please tell me, because I can't remember it for the life of me. I believe the lab director was a black woman. And then who could forget the prosecutors that decide to repress facts and so the jury doesn't make a proper decision. The case of intelligence based sentencing comes to mind where jurors found out that they were uninformed that a man they were sentencing was mentally retarded.

I'm not telling anyone what decision to make on such an issue, because it's not black and white. However, the facts show innocent men are convicted. I refuse to support the death penalty if it means one innocent man will die - I couldn't live with myself if I did. The weirdest thing is that I was pro-death penalty just a few months ago. Now I'm off for a run. Have a great day guys. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

100% pro capital punishment. Anyone who commits a serious crime and is proven BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT deserves to have his civil rights, and possibly his/her life, stripped. (a VERY strong opinion, i know! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif ) I can't stand to see criminals released just to do more crimes while innocent people are murdered/raped/robbed/etc.

I'm torn. If we execute someone that was innocent, we can't take it back... But then I think about people like McVeigh and all of those innocent people. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif