Harder for older students to join?
 

I have heard lots of questions here regarding age of the PNMs and it being held against someone for being a sophomore while rushing. This concept is unheard for me and I don't exactly understand the reasoning or logic behind it.

One of the things that we kind encourage our guys to do regarding rush is to broaden our focus on the guys that we consider. Not just freshmen, but there are a tons of guys with unlimited potential that are older (be it sophomore, junior or whatever), already settled into college and know what's going on, able to juggle both school and fraternity, and may already be a proven campus leader in some cases. Those, personally, were my favorite ones to rush, I guess partially because you want to know that the fraternity is in good hands when you leave.

So, I guess my question is - why would someone be at a disadvantage at your campus because they aren't a freshman?

When you're talking SEC, many of the chapters go in to rush above total, and so getting quota is their only opportunity to increase their numbers. If they take a sophomore, that person is going to be gone in 3 years instead of 4, and due to being over total, they wouldn't be able to replace that person.

Let's see if I can put together a simple example.

Total = 10
Quota = 5
XYZ is at 15
That means, going into recruitment, they can take 5 more, putting them at 20.

Next year, total is still 10, quota is still 5, they're at 15 due to graduating 5 srs. They take 5 and are now at 20 again.

This pattern repeats, only that first year, they took a sophomore, who graduated in 3 years. That means that they had 6 graduate, and quota is only 5. They're still above total, so 5 is all they can take, so they end up with only 19 this year.

Now, multiply the above scenario by 20 and you've got the situation at many SEC schools.


ETA: Theoretically, if you have enough groups over total (and therefore not willing to take sophs for the purpose of staying over total), you should be looking into raising total...but I get the distinct impression that it would be easier to get an edict from God than change total at some of these schools.

Quotas are something else foreign to fraternity life at my school. Every semester I was at UCA, there was at least one sorority didn't take either a fall or spring pledge class because of quota, but the fraternities are just out there gettin' the guys... as many as you can every semester, it seems. I guess that's why it didn't make sense to me. What is the purpose of quota anyway? To keep the playing field as even as possible, I suppose?

Yep. Quota = number of girls rushing/number of chapters. So, technically, if there are 100 rushees, and 10 chapters, each chapter should get 10. But, due to PNM preference, etc, it generally doesn't happen that way.:)

When I was at TU, that didn't seem to be a problem at all. We even had Juniors for new members.

No, I would say upperclassmen receiving a bid isn't a huge problem at a good 60-70% of schools. But, the ones that ARE hard to get a bid for an upperclassmen comprise a HUGE amount of many NPCs. I would venture to guess there are a few sororities whose SEC numbers alone top that of some of the smaller NPCs total national numbers.

It will of course depend on the size of school, the % of Greeks on campus and has nothing to do with the SEC other than they are all Old South Schools where Greek life is very strong from the good old days where legacies are a prime consideration especially in Sororities. They have enough people who want to join and have families from the GLOs. There fore, the limitations are just that.

If some of the other non snob schools look at the individual, they look at the person, not really the age unless they are seniors.

OP is correct, the idea is to get and keep a member as long as possible to grow through the ranks and help the chapters out over a period of time.

Side note: I don't believe, just from personal experience, that those with most years of activity are the biggest contributors. Kind of like how experience is great but =/= leadership.

It's a foreign concept for most LGLOs as well. Some organizations won't even allow a freshman to pursue membership at all; most make them wait until they have completed at least one full term. I don't have hard statistics on this, but from my own observations many people do not join LGLOs until late in the sophomore year or during the junior year.

However, from reading about quotas, etc. on GC, I can see why it is an issue for some of the NPC sororities.

This is a chapter issue more than a school issue. Further, it is an issue that can evolve and change over time with supply and demand.

Speaking specifically to NIC fraternities, such as your own- Sigma Nu, at any campus you care to name- even the SEC schools with highly competitive rush environments- there are always fraternities where sophomores and juniors will have no trouble rushing and getting a bid assuming they are otherwise deemed suitable candidates.

And at most schools, some more than others, there are fraternities where being beyond your freshman year is a major obstacle.

To use Texas as an example, I can think of 3 fraternities here where that has probably always been the case- all chapters which have at all times been strong in size and the most socially prominent organizations.

And at any given time there might be 5 or 6 where getting a bid as a sophomore or junior will be difficult- usually the 5 or 6 largest and most socially regarded chapters at the time.

It is a simple case of supply and demand. Coming into rush, any top fraternity at any campus will have way more eager rushees than they will have spots in the final pledge class. First priority will naturally go to legacies, guys who were known to the fraternity before they started college and freshman who come into rush who are ideal candidates and who have clearly planned to go Greek well before reaching college.

From that pool of candidates, there will still be many cuts- and so it can really hard for there to be space for someone who waited until sophomore year because they were not ready or not even really aware of Greek Life when they went to college.

It does not mean it is a hopeless cause. If a guy comes to college with no plans to go Greek and meets up with people as a freshman and turns out to be a solid candidate- he will have a fair shot at spring rush or perhaps even fall rush as a sophomore.

But someone coming blindly into rush with no prior connections as a sophomore is going to have a hard time purely because they waited.

This may disregard a particular individual who would make a great candidate, but it is a matter of practical convenience. Chapters have limited pledge class sizes, limited rush budgets and a limited amount of time in which to seek out the best potential candidates for membership.

And so sometimes arbitrary points like this become an issue- points which may not be good for an individual, but which do serve a general and legitimate practical purpose.

It is no different in professional life. In the world of accounting a great many senior staff and middle management accounting jobs are advertised ONLY for candidates with Big 4 Experience (Ernst & Young, Deloitte, KPMG and PriceWaterhouseCoopers.)

Making that arbitrary requirement does not guarantee all the candidates will be better than average, nor does it prevent you from missing a great candidate who did not choose to start their career in public accounting.

But with that arbitrary requirement you do generally get yourself a much more qualified and professional pool of candidates from which to choose. And if the supply is such that an ideal future employee is going to be contained within that pool of candidates- why take the time and expense to look at everyone? There is no benefit in that.

Then again, many companies consider all candidates since for whatever reason going only with Big 4 people is not a good idea. Maybe they do not have the prominent position that would attract such candidates, or maybe they do want to take the time to see everyone. Either way, their call whether to do that or not.

Anyhow, hope that helps.

I may be mistaken, but from reading the Alabama sorority recruitment thread, it appears there is an upperclassmen quota separate from the freshman quota. This may be unique to Bama, though.

It's not completely unique, but it's not something that every school does, or even has the need to do.

I'm a junior, looking to join a fraternity or start a chapter of one, a lot of thought is going into both options right now.

Of the fraternities at my school which I have checked out, they've all told me the same thing, that it's "never too late" to join, but I think they mean "as long as your still a undergrad", and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't give say, a 45 year old a bid. But joining one in one's third or even fourth year isn't unheard of, I know a few people who've done just that.

Jen

IMHO....I think Fraternities look at things a little differently than Sororities.

When I rushed (that shows my age there), I believe every house admitted Sophomores, but it was limited in some houses. Some sororities admitted Juniors, but not that many Juniors went through recruitment. I am not aware than anyone banned Seniors, but I can't remember any rushing or receiving a bid.

Frats.....I knew Seniors that pledged.

Bottom line....It's all up to the chapter.

On my campus, as far as fraternities are concerned, this is not the case...

It also depends on the type of group it is. I joined my local as a fourth year. In OPA, we've had plenty of pledge classes with no freshmen at all (a trend we made sure to discontinue--at one point, we were about to lose about half of our membership to graduation, so we recruited freshmen girls like crazy that semester!).

Also, my boyfriend joined Phi Kappa Sigma as a fifth year. :p Most GT students (I think the number is something like 70%) take more than four years to graduate, and their chapter was small at the time. From my experience, though, I've never seen a fraternity put a cap on how many bids to hand out or pledges to take in. Especially if a chapter is struggling with numbers; they can afford to mostly focus on quantity during rush, then determine quality later.

For a few orgs at my school, it is much harder to get in as a junior (we have sophomore rush). Some houses automatically cut all juniors and others may take 1 (certainly no more than 2) for the pledge class. Usually only about 5-10 juniors even rush.

I wasn't able to find an answer. Can someone please enlighten me with what the purpose of a quota might be?

As a capitalist, I always saw it as those that were more desirable, for whatever reason based on campus, activities, people, national, costs, house, whatever, would be the ones people want to join. They take as many as they want - they may not want all those who are interested.

Those that are less desirable, for whatever reason, or that are more desirable to the individualist, might be smaller, but they will learn what they have to do to be economically feasible, or they go away.

I don't understand what benefit any type of quota system brings to a campus. I hope someone will enlighten me.

It allows more groups to flourish on that campus. It's a cooperative agreement among the members of NPC for the benefit of all groups.

Basically, it seems that you think everything should operate based on free market principles, but the members of the NPC groups have decided that it's better to have multiple healthy groups on campus than it is to have a few very large groups and other struggling groups.

Although you have in other threads expressed your belief that certain groups are in fact better than other groups and I guess I can infer from that that you think that other groups should go under through direct competition with stronger groups, the NPC thinks it best protects the interests of member groups when it balances the competition among groups.

And remember, the NPC doesn't have a monopoly. Campuses are welcome to have locals. If an NPC decided that the Green book rules weren't the way they wanted to go, they could leave, I suppose. There may even be non-NPC affiliated groups for all I know.

(Sometimes I wonder if the IFC system is better myself, but while I obviously have a preference for my own group, I don't have as strong a sense as you apparently do that a girls belonging to one group over another makes that much a difference in her Greek experience. Even if she can't be XYZ, there's still a benefit in being QRS in my mind.)

Quota keeps the sororities more equal. If all sororities could take everyone they wanted to who was interested, it would quickly cause a very uneven balance. The "less desirable" groups start to die off. Those who have seen it happen, know that when the weakest link finally breaks, it leaves a new weakest link, and the cycle starts over. Eventually, even the "desirable" groups start to decline, as there are less total Greeks to do PR. It's better to keep a quota system, and keep things semi-equal. Otherwise you would end up with a dynamic Greek system, which is not to the benefit of the campus. Better to keep however many sororities it takes to fill the campus, and not have groups constantly coming and going.

I guess I just don't understand the concept of wanting to keep things equal artificially. Apparently, I'm the only greek on the planet who doesn't get it, though.

Not everyone would be interested in the larger houses, all else being equal, and not everyone interested in the larger houses would necessarily be pledged, right?

Oh, well...enough people on these forums have told me to shut up and color. I guess I'll do so.

Before I shut up and color, as many seem to want me to do, let me say that I don't believe one group is better than another. I believe one group one any one campus may be the best for each individual, and that an individual should be given the time to get to know that, and to choose.

I'm not willing to let others make those choices for me without my voice being heard, but apparently that's not appropriate in these forums. Here it seems to be go along with the group. Sorry, that's not for me.

Often on smaller campuses, they do have that. It's called continuous open bidding. We had instances where girls came to open bid parties for a year before they joined because they just weren't ready.

But if you have hundreds of girls going through rush at the same time, you don't have that luxury. It's my belief that at campuses where all the chapters are very large, they probably are more alike than different.

Oh, and please tell me what "shut up and color" means, because I don't have a clue.

I've heard this expression in only one area of the country (although I'm sure it's used elsewhere), and it basically meant, "Run along now... your opinion doesn't matter here." Of course, you have to imagine it being said with the proper amount of condescension for full effect.

I'm certainly not trying to stifle your opinion. I was trying to give what I thought was the logic behind the ideas of quota and campus total.

Fraternities, for the most part, don't seem to use a similar system, and as I said, something I wonder if their way is better.

But I think it's true that the NPC has decided that the interests of all groups are best protected by regulating the number of new members that groups can take in and I think that in terms of what system will produce a great number of healthy groups, and therefore the best Greek experience for the most women, I think they might be right.

I was an undergraduate member at a big school with more than 1000 girls rushing each year and 18 groups, so it's harder for me to accept the idea that there's one best group for each girl, other than the group she ends up with when rush is over. At a smaller campus with deferred rush, I'm sure things are different and the groups may have distinctly different personalities and character.

Even with the "false" constraints of quota and total, I think the regulated system probably "works" better overall than groups having to set their own limits bases on when the experience of being a member seems to decline because the group is way too big.

But it's perfectly fine that you disagree.

I'm not sure what you mean by having your choices made for you, though. Even in the quota and total system, girls decide whether they want to join the group that wants them and they get to rank groups. It's just that their choices get narrowed down when groups decide that they don't want to ask them back.

Not really, just depends on the chapter I guess. :confused::confused::confused:

We're mainly discussing NPC/IFC. It doesn't really apply to NPHC, different systems.

oh sorry, my lack of reading all of the post. thanks:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 1537675) We're mainly discussing NPC/IFC. It doesn't really apply to NPHC, different systems.