Dilemma DA or Stay
 

I've searched and read posts on disaffiliation and depledging for awhile on this website, but now I reach a juncture where I must soon choose to either stay in my organization or DA.

Right now my mind is completely torn as to whether or not I should stay or go. As many of you have probably been through what I'm going through I thought I might ask you guys and gals for your opinion on this matter. So here goes...

I rushed this fraternity for 3 quarters. First quarter I was just a silly incoming freshman wanting to get drunk and go to parties. Second quarter was just because I had nothing better to do. I had never ever thought I would just an org because I, like many other people out there had skewed perceptions garnered from TV Shows and Movies as to what a fraternity really was. (I know now that organizations are different from what is portrayed in Media.) Third quarter, I finally decided to just give it a try. Afterall "You can quit at anytime" was the pledge they gave me.

So I went to the interview, received a bid and the next week I was at my first meeting. When I was rushing, the brothers had told me that "We are a non hazing fraternity" Same with all the other rushes I had attended. I knew this was BS, I knew there was going to be some sort of hazing in this organization, but I could not fathom what they were going to do or what was to come. How could I?

As a pledge, every event was shrouded in mystery until it actually happened. Because when you are in the midst of a ritual, quitting never crosses your mind. Only finishing.

With this kind of mentality, the rituals were able to gradually become more and more ludicrous with more and more "challenges" Aka hazing. When any pledge tried to quit the brothers gave them a hard time about it using "But you've already put so much time into it" as a justification of why they should stay. So I stayed until the end. I passed I week and crossed. But I was yet to be initiated.

The initiation process was always shrouded in mystery, but now I realize it involves taking wood. To me, it was only a reminder of all the lies my brothers had told me before I became one of them. I literally asked one of them if I was going to get paddled. They stared me in the eye and said no.

So my question to you guys is this. Should I stay in this organization or should I DA? if I DA theres no way I can ever join another org on my campus, but if I stay, will I be able to respect myself in the morning? Everything that has been done has been against my morals but I thought: "I'm just pledging everyone goes through it. It's tradition. It builds brotherhood." there were a million reasons why I stuck through it, and to this day I still feel like the hazing and rituals during pledging taught me much about strength through adversity.

It's just that I don't think I can really respect myself if i am expected to lie to the pledges, which is basically what they are asking me to do. I also cannot expect myself to accept getting wood from someone because of some antiquidated notion of tradition. If it had been a punishment for doing something wrong then maybe. But just because "everyone before you has done it." doesn't seem to cut it with me.

The actual process of getting wood doesnt worry me because compared to pledging, this is nothing. However, it's my morals that get in the way. Granted that the brotherhood my fraternity shares is very much strong and alive, that is about the only thing I agree with in the organization. The hazing, the lies, and everything else is something I cannot accept. So at this point my dilemma lies in the fact that by giving up this fraternity, I will be closing myself to an entire social group which I have gotten to know well. I feel as if I am turning my back on the brothers that gave me a bid in the first place. I stand to lose much by DA(Brothers,Social Status,Chance to ever be in another Org) but how can I stay in the organization knowing that I disagree with so many of the things going on within it? What should I do?

Not knowing which GLO You are with, it is a judgement call.

If you wish to get a PM or PM me. please feel free!:)

I have to say that your post was kind of long and I didn't read it in detail, but I have to question your integrity if you're willing to stay in an organization that goes against your morals simply because you want the social status that comes with it.

Touche, however, my original post may have come off as a bit callous. I meant to say that I have made some real friendships during my time pledging, and while my pledge brothers have assured me that they will be with me no matter what I decide, I'm pretty sure not everyone would be so forgiving. What I am loathe to give up is the friendships I have made. I guess one can argue that if someone breaks off a friendship because you are doing something you want to do then he isn't your friend at all but somehow I keep convincing myself that I'm the one that's doing the betrayal if I DA

isn't it a little early for all this deactivation talk?

Granted I just got into the fraternity and have not experienced much beyong pledging, I feel like I've gotten a taste of what it is and so far there is alot that I didnt expect to happen within the brotherhood. If I wait then I will be initialized, I will take the wood and then it will be that much harder to turn my back on the organization. Even now the choice is so incredibly hard. How will I feel if I am initialized and then decide to DA?

Stay. You and your lbs could be the catalyst for change.

Initialized? Is this D9-lingo that I've just not heard? Is this the same as initiated?

i meant initiated, sorry. :P

QFT. If you really feel as though you would be missing out if you left, then stay and change the system.

I don't think he is D9. He said the brothers gave him a "bid." We don't use that term.

Two thoughts:

First, why don't you try staying, but when they attempt to haze you, just say no? Just laugh and say that you're not going to do X, that's dumb, and then see what happens. If they tell you that you have to do X or quit, then tell them you'll quit. Maybe they'll let you walk out the door, but you won't know until you try. They may be hazing just because all other pledges have let them get away with it.

Second thought -- my husband was pledge class president, and he quit the week before initiation because he was sick of the disrespect. He said it was a very hard thing to do, since he had built his social life around his fraternity, but he was just too disgusted to stay. It worked out fine for him, and I've always respected him for being that brave.

Good luck!

Isn't crossing the same as being initiated? I'm confused...so are you still in pledge period?

This exactly happen to one of my good friends. She was her class president, but she too couldn't take the pressure and other things that was going on. She quit the week before, and she was the only one who quit in her pledge class. Next thing you knew, she went to rush for a professional sorority and was happy ever since then.

To Answer your question it's different. When you are pledging you are expected to greet and follow the traditions of a pledge (respect and so on) you cannot disobey the command of a brother. however, after you cross its basically like you are already a brother. you just havent undergone the actual initiation.

is it just me, or is there something very suspect (and indiscreet) about this?

To put that into some perspective....

In Alpha Phi Omega, there is a very distinct period after pledging officially ends and before you are initiated. (NOT a probate or hell week period) For some chapters it might be a week, in my chapter it's a few hours. In some chapters, "crossing" might be different from initiation for that reason.

That's not the case in my chapter, but I wanted to provide some additional perspective that could be relevant to this dude's experience.

ETA: Since you also edited yours, I just wanted to point out that everything I mentioned is publicly accessible information on our website, in the pledging standards.

so it could be just me? cool. thanks. :)

ETA: thanks again. never doubted you for a second. :)

Naw, it's not just you.... I wasn't ready to hear the details either, lol

I have a suggestion. For argument's sake, let's say that the "rationalization" of hazing is to bring the pledges together. Get together with your pledge class and as a unit, tell the brothers that you refuse to "take wood". You can even tell them that "as a class, we are standing against this hazing" and that this is what they wanted, for you to bond.

My guess is that they aren't going to tell you all to go home. On the slight chance they do, then you can be proud that you stood up for yourself.

Good luck.

You'd be amazed at how few people realize this.

After rereading your initial post, I have to wonder whether you really *know* that initiation involves "taking wood" (what an awful phrase, btw). If your brothers told you it wouldn't, then why do you think they lied to you? Does the rest of your pledge class *know* about what's involved? How did you find out? Just wondering....

Because, they told us to make paddles and get ready to not be able to sit down for a few days? (in a non joking sort of way)

My impression is that you're an upstanding guy with a pretty clear view of what's going on. I think you'd be an excellent brother and an asset to your frat, as was said before, you and your pledge brothers could be the change agents. Whether you do it before initiation and stand up against the hazing or decide to "take the wood" (I agree, awful term) and then be the brothers who refuse to haze from the inside, this could be your opportunity. You seem like you'd be a great GLO member, though. And it's lifelong, so do think carefully about whether you could live with your DA, know the organization probably won't change in your absence, and you don't have those bonds of brotherhood to enjoy past your years in college.

Im gonna DA
 

After a long and hard thought and after reviewing all the comments, I believe it would be best for me to DA. Yes, I could stay and be a catalyst for change, but that is not something that is very likely as there are more chapters, and we would have to convince all the chapters to change. It's just not something I have the time for. leaving the GLO is probably one of the hardest decisions I have ever made, however, I believe it is the right one. Not having time to pursue my scholastic career and try to change this fraternity, I cannot just stay either, watching what I believe to be an injustice go by just to enjoy the benefits of being in the fraternity.

Besides, the bonds I've made with my pledge bros are true. Hazing and the Rituals taught me that at least. I've told them about my decision, and they said they'll stand by me no matter what I do.

Its going to be hard breaking it to the brothers though.

I think i'll go professional. Thanks for all your help.

Yeah, you keep thinking that. I have NEVER met someone who dropped who was really still friends with the people who made it. In the back of their minds or in their hearts or wherever they keep it, they will always view you as the one who quit.

true that, Senusret, true that.

word. ::flashbacks to Spr 06::

The organization probably won't change in your absence or even with your participation. Do what's best for you. If you're not getting out of it what you hoped, there's no shame in admitting it and looking for another activity that will bring you more satisfaction.

Maybe they WERE joking. Why not just keep going until they try to do this? Imagine disaffiliating only to find out that they were joking. They could really play up the "way to trust a brother" line.

No matter what you decide, good luck. I just would hate for you to leave simply on speculation.

ETA: I hope that the OP comes back and lets us know what happened.

If you feel like you've been threatened, I think you should talk to an initiated brother you trust.

And I'm sorry, fraternity men, but I can't understand how physically attacking someone or beating them instills respect and brotherhood. Are you guys just making up for not being spanked by your helicopter parents while growing up?

i've received this information from multiple sources, from brothers I trust. However, I'm sure they're going to tell me if I decide to DA. They will probably be like yeah "we were just joking" or something, but I dont know if thatll change my mind much, as the initiation problems only reflect the many problems that exist besides that in my mind.

The experiences we shared during pledging were real. No one can take that away from us. I had there backs so many times. Sometimes i [literally] carried them on my back

If they don't actually have back after all those times I've had theirs then I guess, I wouldn't really want to make friends with them anyways. True brotherhood is about supporting each other no matter the outcome of the situation.

True brothers don't quit.

I can see this issue two ways:

One, I have always wondered why people who were injured during hazing didn't walk away from the situation before it got that bad. So I have a level of admiration for a person being ready to do that.

On the other hand, I don't believe things will stay the same with your pledge brothers if you quit. Even if they don't specifically view you as weaker for not making it through, you will be the guy who stood outside or above the values of the immediate group, and most people aren't going to be so comfortable with that once they are full members. The bond you share will be replaced by the bond the have with each other, I'm afraid.

I suppose in a perfect world, I'd like to see you and your pledge brother together go to the older brothers and discuss your concerns with them. I don't know how realistic it is, but it sure seems better than dropping out or accepting the hazing.

Having a unified front and saying ENOUGH as a pledge class/line is always an option.

"Realistic" comes into play when pledges are too afraid of the assumed and perceived consequences of standing up to the members of the chapter.

Assumed and perceived indeed. I think it takes more balls to stand up to someone than to quit because of something you thought might happen.

I think there might be more going on here than we think.

I don't have a problem with standing up and trying to make a change, the problem becomes apparent when the process must be approved by national HQ and Alpha chapter, its not just my brothers I must convince (which is already a task in itself) And while me and my pbros are really close, they just dont share the same viewpoint I have about hazing. They don't really care.

As a sidenote, the initiation is nothing compared to pledging itself it's only because i feel lied too that this is even an issue. In terms toughness it shouldn't even be an issue because i could definately stand the physical aspects of it. It's the morals I have a problem with.

I know the older brothers quite well, I believe it will be almost impossible to convince them to stop hazing unless I'm in some sort of executive position (which would take more work than I have time for)

Okay then, but you can see that your dropping has a much smaller effect on the welfare of the group overall.

But I don't think you should agree be hazed either.

You know what your choices are better than I do.

If you can't (or won't) invest the time required to make a positive impact on the fraternity, then you should quit. And it's probably going to sound mean to say this, but I'm gonna say it anyway (especially since you haven't really given us a whole lot of information, and all we can do is speculate)...

It sounds like you're trying to hide behind the excuse that your brothers have lied, instead of owning up to the realization that contributing to a Greek organization requires much effort.

You've made a couple of comments regarding not having the time to do what you think needs to be done for the benefit of the group. If you realize you don't have the time (which you've admitted), then just say you're quitting because you don't have the time. Don't say you're quitting because you feel like the group has less-than-desirable morals. Be honest. With yourself and the brotherhood. If you're not up front about why you're quitting, then you're lying just as much as the brothers you're complaining about.