Ethnic diversity: North vs. South
 

Someone posted a link to the list of girls who got bids at Auburn and one thing that stuck me immediately was the WASPyness of the last names - not very many "ethnic" names at an SEC rush.

My northern sorority had (and still has) girls with names that reveal LOTS of Irish, Italian and German backgrounds, plus Polish, Jewish, Czech, Japanese and a whole lot of different ancestries. The few with traditional "English" names were in the minority. I'm guessing the sorority list reflects the ethnic make-up of the school, but it was still a big surprise!

A lot of it is the history of the area. The South was settled by the English and the Scots, so most of the names are going to sound WASPy.

You get to the midwest and it was the second wave of immigration and you will see Polish, Irish, German, Czech, etc.

Many parts of the south are quite ethnically diverse. Auburn and other similar schools have less-than-diverse greek systems, however.

Well I wouldn't necessarily say less-than-diverse Greek systems, just that the various conferences/councils/what-have-you within the systems tend to be relatively homogenous. For example, there are mostly white women and white men in the NPC and IFC sororities and fraternities at most SEC schools; however, there are plenty of ethnic sororities and fraternities as well including the NPHC organizations and other organizations that fall into the multicultural category (I can't remember the name of their association). I think that is a recurring problem throughout the South; while our population may be just as ethnically diverse as anywhere else in the States, we tend to self-segregate more than other areas due to centuries-old traditions that we never even consciously recognize.

But what about diversity within so-called "white" ethnicities? The original poster stated that there were few non-"English" sounding last names....i.e. few names that sounded they were from "The Continent"

I'm guessing that most of the girls going through NPC rush are descendants of those first settlers, rather than those from other nationalities who came later. Not only that, I'm betting that if you were in an environment that was primarily English, you'd be more likely to Anglicize your name than someone who landed in, say, Pittsburgh or Chicago. Kendall Somers might really be Kimmy Sobieski.

I just took a quick glance and I noticed quite a few ethnic german last names on the list. There is also a whole section of "Mc" something, which could either be irish or scottish. But I didn't see too many italian names.

I would agree that it has allot to do with the people who live in that region and are therefore most likely to make up the majority of women going through rush. When I think of American-Italian food, I don't immediately think of Alabama.

I know of more and more people with "ethnic" names who have moved to the South and now have college-aged children - some of them must be considering the Greek system.

Yeah I would just attribute that to the ancestry of the majority of the population here...there are certainly Italians, Poles, Germans, and Eastern European NPC sorority members in the mix but they're just not in the majority, same as the general population. I was addressing the point shinerbock was making in this quote.

I went to a local comedy club several months ago. The opening act was a comic from New Jersey. He starts his routine with the question: "Heyyy how many Italians in the house??" :::::::::dead silence::::::::::::: He continued by making jokes about the Olive Garden, etc. I felt sorry for him.

Ethnic diversity is...not necessarily what people think it is all the time. At our COE for the university I attend, which I spoke at, they mentioned to us that we need to be more 'diverse' in the people we have in our sorority. Apparently, all the NPC sororities were told this. It's a bit difficult when you have a school with a small minority population that doesn't want to interact with WASPs. What they need to realize is that true diversity doesn't come from different skin colors or last names or heritages, though they can help. It comes from people who are from different walks of life. We have a girl in my sorority who is from a very small town. She's very country, loves horses, so on and so forth. She's VERY different from me: I grew up in a big city and have done very few of the things she has. Because of the way we were raised, we often have differing opinions and different experiences with things. We're diverse; people just assume we aren't because we both happen to be white.

I do want to encourage those who are still collegiate members to encourage their panhellenics to reach out to those who would not normally consider NPC organizations. It breaks my heart to be one of only a handful of black women in my organization and in an NPC on my campus period. Why?

It's an amazing experience and it's just so sad like when I went to SEPC and there were only a handful of black girls or women that are not white period. A lot of women just wave it off because they don't see themselves fitting in. As a Panhellenic Council officer who is involved in the recruitment process I personally seek out women who think sorority life is not for them or are not the same ethnicity as the women who make up the majority of the sororities on my campus. They love it when I show them that they too can find sisterhood in our organizations.

Very true, and the longer ago they came, the more likely it is that the name has been anglicized. My very Southern wife's family came to the South from Germany -- they anglicized their name about 225 years ago.

Question: Are people in the south less likely to identify with their non-British Isles ancestry than people in other parts of the US? Or is it just immigration patterns?

I don't know about that. My Illinois-born grandfather's parents and older siblings came over on the boat from Germany - but my grandpa didn't have any spesific German customs or anything...I don't even think he knew more than 20 German words. Well, he probably did "back in the day", but his family assimilated quickly.

I'm not sure what you mean about it being "just immigration patterns." I know plenty of people in the South (and in my own family) that readily identify with (for example) German, French (especially Huguenot), Dutch, Italian and even Lebanese heritage. These backgrounds can be especially noticeable in matters of religion (wherever the Germans settled, for example, many old Lutheran churches will be found) and food.

But in so many instances, the families have been here for so long that they all converge in a generic European Southerness.

I would think that the presence of HBCUs would affect statistical measurements at schools in the south. Out west (not on the coast) our system is sometimes as diverse as the local population, but many schools have thriving Latino Greek orgs. or MCGLOs.

As for names, my last name is Frisian technically, but was considered German when disembarking the boat (due to where the boat came from), and it is actually Dutch. I think we all know about the issues at Ellis island with the word Deutsch and Dutch. But that is all somewhat pointless, since it says WASP in the box that says "race or color" on my birth certificate (not making that up).

Immigration patterns=countries people tend to come from/have ancestry from. For example, lots of people from Chicago are of Polish descent. Lots of Irish in Boston. etc...

I also don't think one necessarily becomes more "generic" the longer one is in a country. Sure, people integrate/assimilate to a degree, but later-wave immigrants seem to have a closer connection with the old country, even generations after they've settled. For example, Italian-Americans will probably continue to identify as Italian-American for generations to come.

I guess I wasn't clear enough -- I know what immigration patterns are; I wasn't sure what you meant by your question.

Maybe, maybe not. I think you have to remember that, in regard to immigration patterns, later-wave immigrants have generally not come to the South in large groups, except for those from Latin America. Just to name a few examples, there have never, as far as I can remember, been large-scale immigragations of Poles, Italians, or Irish (not Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish) to the South. (There are exceptions, like Greeks in Tarpon Springs and elsewhere.)

The large waves of German, French or other groups to the South were, for the most part, centuries ago, hence the loss of the ___-American identity and the prevalence of a more generic Southern identity.

Yep. And there's something a little sad about it, but it doesn't make it any less real or any less comfortable particularly for the members of minority groups who, after going almost all day as the sole member of their group, want to feel at home at least part of the day.

You all talking about historic immigration patterns are kind of completely ignoring the entire Gulf Coast and Florida. While Florida might be culturally debatable, coastal Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are both southern and not-as-WASPy.

(But apparently not sending that many girls to Auburn.)

With regard to the Gulf Coast, that falls, I think (though I stand to be corrected), under the distinction I was making between recent, or later-wave, immigration patterns and those that occured, say, over a century ago. And I excepted immigration of Latin Americans from my general statement.

As for Florida, I think it is indeed arguable that many of the immigration patterns in the last century have made Florida less traditionally Southern.

As someone raised in the deep south, not many people identify with anything other than being southern. I have German, Swedish, Italian and a small bit of English blood, but I and my family don't specifically identify with any of them. White ethnic groups in Louisiana are more locally defined...as in cajun or creole if they even apply. We have a lot of French names in LA which is a little different from the rest of the south, but Polish and Czech names are practically unheardof here.

I think the culture of the Gulf Coast remains other than "wasp-y" and I thought you were sort of saying that the earlier the immigrants settled the more likely they were to have given up the non- white, anglo-saxon protestant parts of their identity, and I think we agree that the earliest immigrants on the Gulf were not WASPs.

The coast is kind of its own thing. It's Southern and historically more Catholic and culturally/historically as influenced by French and Spanish influences as it would have been by Anglo-Irish-Scots. (Nobody is giving up Thibadeaux is favor of Thomas, or whatever.)

But other than LSU, the coast culture probably isn't that well represented in SEC Greek Life overall. It's too diluted by the WASPiness.

Now I want to see the NM Lists of the flagship Florida schools to see if that is accurate.

Was this around WWI? Lots of people of German descent hid their German-ness at that time. Here in Canada, the of Berlin, Ontario even changed its name to Kitchener.

Well, there were Scotch-Irish slaveowners who owned my ancestors and gave me my last name, but it's not like I celebrate Robbie Burns and St. Patrick's Day. ;)

(My father's side of the family can trace its roots back to early 1800s Georgia. Even though we're not white, I'd say that makes us pretty darned Southern.)

My dad's mom's family kept the German name during both World Wars but they're all farmers in Kansas so I doubt they had neighbors to harass them about it.

Just a thought about ethnicity, some of it could be masked due to marriage. My last name is English although my mom is 100% Italian in her heritage. Her family's names are all very clearly Italian, but since she's female, the last name is lost despite the fact that we're very Italian (although less so than my grandmother).

I do know that my grandmother (a DZ) dealt with some discrimination with regards to sororities, her sister never joined one because she felt discriminated against and I would bet my nonna's rush was different as a daughter of immigrants than as someone who's been here since the Revolution.

/my thoughts, they ramble.

I agree with the thought that the longer your family has been in the states the more likely that you're not ethnic any more. But I do want to remind people that when your family has been in the states for a long time your last name is a less dependable indicator of ethnicity.

For example, my last name is English. Most of my ethnic heritage is actually German. Even then there's some fuzzyness if my great great grandfather truly was Bavarian or French. He was the last immigrant that we're aware of and he was still here in time to enlist in the Civil War! Most of his daughters moved to the South. One even ran off and married a Cuban before divorcing and settling in Atlanta! The point is, names mean nothing these days. :D

eta: Drole kind of beat to my point. :)

Lol, great minds think alike :p

i just wanted to comment
 

hi my name is rosa and i am a pnm. i dont know if i am suppose to be posting on this board but i just really wanted to comment on this topic.i am currently attending school in ga but will be transferring to school in texas in the spring. i am african american and hispanic and do plan to participate in rush in the spring if the school i end up in has informal if not in the fall as a jr. i love phc sororities! i never had the desire to go the nphc route at all, despite the fact that i have many family members who are alums.
i think alot of the reason minorities think twice about going the phc route is because of incidents that tend to make people think that all organizations in the phc and ifc are like. such as orgs. that throw parties making fun of races, stories in the news of girls not getting bids because of being black etc. also there is the issue of alienation on both sides.at the school that im attending our greeks have an event open to everyone so we can see all the greeks on campus.they bbq and all, its really nice well the nphc orgs. didnt want to come and be apart of it so they didnt take part. a few did come and stand across the quad and watch. a friend of mine who is recruitment chair for a phc asked me why they didnt want to come over and be with everyone else i told her if they wanted to be ignorant thats them . during this event i went to talk to one sorority that i really wanted to join and the girls wouldnt even talk to me. i wanted to get a info sheet and they all made this face. that hurt me but i was like ok well there is 5 more orgs. to look at. and the girls were everything i had expected. nice, friendly, i felt totally comfortable.......... after this event(i was the only black girl to attend this event period... and i go to a school thats half black half white) one of my friends who is in an nphc and other of minority friends asked me about going to this and making a big deal out of it. i was being made to feel like i was being a traitor to my whole entire race because i didnt want to join a nphc, and was considering phc. people actually started going around saying i would rather be around whites than my own people. i know many people who have had similar to this happen and have not looked twice at phc because of it .Another thing is the process. nphc and mcg's latino greeks have membership intake. nphc is really selective and secretive about even getting "on line" but you go through this process where u really get to know who is gonna be your sister before you are even initiated(if u get initiated). latino greeks have intrest groups where for a whole semester you are with other girls who want to join fufilling various requirements such as community service,planning events ,etc. then if selected will go through the same "on line " process. phc has one - two weeks and then if you get a bid then your in. Alot of ppl feel that you dont really get to know the organization or its members well enough that way to make a decision thats for life.......

anyways i just wanted to give some insight from the other side. theres so much that aids in the decision of joining any organization when your a minority (some know when there in high school what they want to join).and i think the phc's in some places do an awesome job some not so good . ..... but dont give up!! because you convinced me! and if i do end up receiving a bid when i rush, i plan to work with my org. to help better recruite minorities . sorry this is so long but if u ever have any questions or are curious to hear my ideas on things you could do that would appeal to minorities or wanna test you ideas on me i would be willing to give you an honest unbiased opinion

I'm thinking this is really only an option for people who are of European stock. At some point in American history, folks of European descent were just lumped together under the more generic "white" banner, and therefore they may be less likely to identify with their original ethnic heritage.

But for those of us of a duskier hue, it becomes a little more difficult to disassociate oneself from your ethnic heritage. Like I said earlier, my folks have been in the US since at least 1800, and I still consider myself Black.

People of color can assimilate into a culture, but unless they intermarry with whites and "bleach out" (for lack of a better term), they can't ever really stop being ethnic.

I agree with your point that skin color ultimately wins out. 'Cause just cause you're black it doesn't mean you don't have European roots and just cause you're white it doesn't mean that none of your ancestors came from Africa. :D

Plus with being black in America I honestly think that there's an even quicker tendency to assume an undefined African slave history. My best friend's father's side of the family is from Antigua so there's no American slave history there. Two guys I work with are black but their fathers are from Panama. Again, no American slave history. I think it would suck to grow up in the US learning "all your ancestors" came from slavery when you know full well they didn't!

In my experience, the NPHC groups just aren't as present at some of the SEC schools. You know they exist, but they just really don't have that much involvement in the "greek community"

Okay, I kind of understand what you're getting at here, but I have some problems with some of your thinking/assumptions. The greek event where the NPHC didn't wanna go - even though you say they were invited, you don't know the reasons as to why they chose not to participate, don't assume it was from ignorance. You are not a member of those orgs, so you (nor I) won't ever really know why they chose not to show up - but for you to assume it was simply them being ignorant shows a bit of naviety/ignorance on your part.

Also, to clarify, the NPHC orgs have a membership intake process - that is the official term they use once they elected to get rid of pledging (& make it illegal). Latin & multicultural greeks have what most call an intake process. A one-word difference, but the M.I.P. phrase is something especially (I believe exclusively) for the NPHC. The conotations of the different words mean very different things.

Just trying to clarify it for you.

i wasnt trying to come across as ignorant i was told by several friends who are nphc memembers why they didnt want to come... but at the same time i think you are right i really cant speak for them. its a hard situation to explain the way i want to explain it without knowing the school. greek life here is very segregated for the most part and its just alot of really bad tension and tons of stuff... i just hope it gets better but anyways i really do appreciate the clarification because i wasnt aware of that difference in the orgs process.

Simple-minded logic...
 

My family name is possibly Jewish-Irish-Cherokee(?) whose slaveowners were of the Bruce Plantation in Alabama and migrated to Quincy, Florida. And that's my father side. My mother's side is Georgia and her genetic father is full-blooded Irish, but that is not what is stated on her birth certificate.

Hayle my birth certificate states "NEGRO" for definition of race.

To EVERYONE:

Some of that is correct. If a "darker hue" with African features says all their family comes from Central and South America with some Carribean roots possible arrived from Africa as slaves nearly 500 years ago. The issue is most of these countries WON their freedom from Slavery in the 1750's--i.e. Haiti... And their whole culture is that of freedom.

Slavery in the United States ended theoretically in 1865, but there was a issue of Jim Crow laws with segregation that theorectically ended in 1968 after Martin Luther King was assassinated.

So when we start talking about getting along while there are those who lived during this ugly chapter and history of the United States that was evident after Hurricane Katrina, suggests we have a very long way to go...

Should we be done with this after 40-odd years? Really? Or are we all being impatient with this instant gratification?

Rather than slamming me because you disagree and decide to deride and debase me, can you argue your points as to why you disagree?

Given that we have young people on GC and we have been asked to present ourselves accordingly, internet hatred with race wars are rather useless and does not increase our knowledge on this discussion.

"Flagship schools" - let's take UF/FSU..
You'll still find traditionally Jewish women pledging the traditionally Jewish sororities... but rarely any crossover.

But if you talk FIU, the NPC sororities are probably 95% hispanic; many of them were born in other countries but moved as young children.. or they're first generation Americans.

Actually, this is not quite true at FSU. SDT has only been on campus a couple of years and they are only about 50-60% Jewish. There are other groups on campus with high percentages of Jewish members, especially AChiO which has traditionally been the 'nondenominational' choice for non-Christian members.