Vick indicted in dog fighting case
 

RICHMOND, Va. - Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick was indicted Tuesday by a federal grand jury on charges related to illegal dogfighting.

Vick and three others are charged with competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting and conducting the enterprise across state lines.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7...PHCP&gt1=10239
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This is disgusting...to treat animals in such a way is foul and evil. I hope all involved are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If in fact Vick was involved, I hope that his money doesn't get him out of it.

From what I have read.....Vick is more than likely going to be in some deep shit. I read on ESPN that they found something like 12 or 13 dead pit bull carcases on his property.

I'm not any kind of big animal rights activist, but dog fighting or even rooster fighting makes me think you'd have to be a really sick person to be involved in it or watch it. How could it be entertaining for a normally adjusted person to watch two animals fight to the death?

It seems an indication of personality flaws like torturing animals as a kid can be part of the homicidal triad.

ETA: I'd like to see the Falcons release Vick. Surely there's something in his contract about how he represents the organization. (They might have to wait for conviction to play it safe, but a federal indictment is damaging enough when you are talking about branding of an organization. Well, any organization except a sports team I guess. Why do some athletes who have had so many opportunities choose to be thugs?

His defense right now is that it was relatives of his who did it. Okay, raise your hands if your relatives could run a 65 dog fighting ring at your house (any one of your houses) and you wouldn't know about it.

(But the particulate in the water bottle wasn't weed, so maybe Michael Vick is the Cassandra of our time. )

I live in the same area as where Vick's house is. The story has obviously been all over our news. The dog fighting was found after a drug warrant was being served on his cousin who lived in his house. To make matters worse, the local commonwealth's attorney kept delaying investigating the dogfighting. He even did serve a search warrant filed on the case. He kept saying that he would not be forced into convicting him. The feds got involved, and look where he is now.

One surprising thing is that PETA is also in this area and have been pretty quiet about the situation.

I persoanlly think it is time for the NFL to wipe its hand's clean of Mr. Vick.

I am an animal lover and I hope the Falcons release him and I would love to see him put UNDER the jail. He can get 6 years max...not nearly enough

If he is guilty then he is a sick bastard who needs to be destroyed

And the sad part is these animals cannot help themselves from fighting. They are bred to fight, generally. And the roosters are male against male.

And to actually watch it... I hate the fight matches mice and rats have when one has to place breeders in the same cage. But THAT IS ILLEGAL and against the Animal Care and Use Committee.

Not surprising if you know anything about PETA. PETA kills more animals than they save, and have statements on the record that indicate that they are for the extinction of certain dog breeds, pit bulls being one of them.

Ah, the nature versus nurture argument. While the breed's original purpose was to breed for gameness and pit fighting characteristics, they still need training to fight.

My pittie and her littermates were rescued from a fighting house. Tasha is the sweetest thing and is submissive to every dog she meets, while a littermate of hers had to be adopted out to a home with no other dogs because she will try to kill ANY other animal she sees that is smaller or near her size. It was heartbreaking because Tasha wasn't taking to her training, so her original owner was starving her to make her mean, while her more aggressive littermates were getting steaks. Didn't work. Does this mean her littermate was born aggressive? No, it means that they were more open to the training and treatment of their former owner.

There are no bad dogs, only bad owners.

Alright.......so The Smoking Gun has a copy of the 18 page affidavit. If what it says is true.....that man should never be allowed to play football again and should be thrown in jail for I don't know how man years. It is absolutely sick.

Talks about drowning the dogs, slamming their heads on the ground, choking them, shooting them, putting them in water and then electricuting them, etc. etc. It names witnesses, names of dogs, dogs that Vick purchased, how much money was being pooled...............personally I think the guy is screwed.

i was a Vick fan up until this.

i have never even had a pet and i get a sick feeling hearing about these allegations. i hope he, and anyone else involved, gets some serious time.

I love Clinton Portis's remarks about the situation :rolleyes: :mad:
He is soaring to the top of my shit list
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6836960

Regardless of how highly you rate the immoral nature of dog fighting (which is clearly a sick enterprise), this is by far worse in my mind - this is honestly just brutal. Killing dogs in such disparate fashion is horrific - part of me thinks it had to be done for enjoyment, with so many sick methods attempted. Just unreal.

So . . . it was born more open to the training? Or did the dog make a decision to be more open? Either way, you're kind of contradictory (either nature plays a huge role, or there are in fact 'bad' dogs) - not that it's at all relevant to the thread, it's clear Pit Bulls can be extremely good pets under the right circumstances. I'm not sure why you go beyond that, at all.

I am by no means justifying what Portis said! However, those comments were made at the "Beach Blitz" in May. After about a week, Portis corrected himself and said that he didn't codone dog fighting. He apologized after the uproar he created, and the Redskins tried to deflect.

In the long run, no matter what Michael Vick is an idiot and deserves the book thrown at him.

The news here that he is expected in Richmond Federal court next Thursday afternoon, July 26th for his arraignment which is scheduled at 3:30pm

I agree that the methods that they used to kill the unsuccessful dogs may be stronger evidence that something being fundamentally wrong with the people involved. I had already learned that when I posted last night.

But I think the fights themselves are also completely sick because they fight to the point of pretty grievous injury or death, I think, most of the time.

I have no problem with controlled fighting for sport for people, like boxing or real Olympic wrestling. But when the point is to maim or kill for entertainment and gambling, it would be sick for people to do it, and maybe even sicker to compel animals to do it who have no choose not to.

I also want to add that I don't have a problem with people mercifully euthanizing animals for almost any reason at all.

But the guys involved in this are just emotionally broken. And I'm not sure why it makes sense for us to just wait until they start harming people before we recognize that they are probably very dangerous.

I also wonder the same thing when kids do truly horrible stuff repeatedly. I don't know what we should do about it, but it seems silly that we act like we can change fundamentally psychopathic or sociopathic people back to normal.

Last night my friend and I were talking about the whole Vick thing and he said "how is it any worse than bullfighting?" I don't really know enough about either sport to give a good answer so after a few seconds I brilliantly said "It just is, okay!" He does raise a point though...can anyone explain for me?

The main difference is that Hemmingway never wrote about dog fighting so we don't romanticize it at all, in my mind - although some would argue that pitting man against animal is somehow different from beast v beast, I think some of the world finds bullfighting pretty much awful, too.

I could throw up, just reading/hearing about this. The poor "bait dogs" - with their mouths wired shut so they can't fight back - what type of person does that, allows that, or watches that?

Not only should Vick be indicted, but absolutely every person who watched these spectacle should be indicted also.

Jill has the right idea!

I don't think either is ok but I think the way humans rationalize bullfighting is that bulls are aggressive, unmanageable animals. Dogs are seen as man's best friend...our companions. Dogs are viewed as "cute" while bulls are viewed "mean". I don't think there is as much as an outcry against bullfighting because people don't automatically think of their own pet when they hear about a bull dying.

bullfighting isnt right either. however, a bull sure as hell can run you over, even kill you, in a controlled environment. these dogs couldnt, they didnt have a chance :(

ZTAngel is right, we look at bulls a whole different way than we do dogs...

Dogs have different levels of intelligence, and learn what people will teach them at different rates. (I was trying to say that Tasha is d-u-m-b, dumb, dumber than dirt. But she is sweet.)

And it was in reference to what someone posted who implied that the dogs have to fight because they were originally bred for it, the nature arguement. I responded with an anecdote for the nurture arguement. Also, to highlight the horrific manner in which these dogs have been treated, so that people might understand some of their behavior.

I suspect that if I actually went to see one, I would find bullfighting pretty bad too.

I think it's funny that K Sig RC mentioned Hemingway because when my husband and I were talking about this last night, I pretty much used The Sun Also Rises as my basis for understanding bullfighting. Thanks, Earnest.

But really, from the running of the bulls to bullfights in other places, I think the idea is based on the real possibility that the bull can gore the man and kill him. There's a bizarre element of authentic respect for the danger to both competitors, and the heroic nature of choosing to confront danger directly and repeatedly. (Sure, the bull's "choice" is probably instinctive and compelled by all the people involved, the flags, etc. I wondered what would happen if the bull just trotted over to the side of the ring by the door and stood there all like "no really man, I'm a lover not a fighter.")

Also, we take for granted that bulls are going to be killed. Most of the time today, it's going to be in a slaughterhouse maybe with electrodes really quickly.

But the tradition of bullfighting probably grew up in a time when people took for granted the legitimacy of man killing bull with knives, and bizarrely the fight probably grew out of respect and honor for the bull.

(Really, though, basically wearing the bull down and repeatedly stabbing him; not such a great example of humane treatment of animals.)

Funny, I fought some Bulls in Mexico, down Baja Way out side of Las Reyes.

Once a bull has fought anyone they are not allowed to fight again and when killed, the meat is given to the poor for food.

If you have never been to a packing plant, the Bulls have a better chance than the cow you eat on your bun.

Breeding dogs to fight is incorrect, they are trained and tortutored to fight!:mad:

Killing dogs like the way they do is inhumain for sure.

I had a Pit Bull who was a pussy and was always playing and very protective of the lady I was living withs grand daughters who lived with us, ages 3-4. No one messed with them when tigre was around!:D

The whole Vick family has put themselves into the hot spot the past few years.

I don't know what the deal is with them!

Cockfights are still legal in some states, how sad.

Anything having to do with animal cruelty just makes my stomach turn and my heart hurt. I saw this video on youtube once where some lady was stepping on puppies with heels, I got about 30 seconds into it before I had to x it out. I later found out it was fake, but that didn't stop me from getting angry/sick at the time.

I don't mean to get off topic......but Tom Earp just said that he fought bulls in Baja Mexico. No offense at all.........but that is one of the most hilarious mental images I have been fortunate to have in quite some time. Earple......please tell me you were hammered runk.

I think I just threw up a little bit....I liked Vick up until the last 2 or 3 years...he was the reason why the falcons got on the map and now they are about to go back to obscurity again....sigh

Yeah, I saw that too. I'd love to read about it in standard prose. Mr. Earp, are you up for it?

Who thought a couple years ago that Marcus would be the classier of the two? Not me.

I think both brothers leave a lot to be desired...

Michael's court date is also the opening day of Atlanta training camp. I would think that the NFL has no choice but to suspend him.

Zero chance he gets suspended unless/until he's convicted.

Like him or not, this is his first real violation, and the NFL program is only hard on repeat offenders.

I remember when Marcus kept getting trouble and a lot was being done to try to cover up Michael's incidents (i.e. Ron Mexico). I knew it was only a matter of time before they got something big on him.

I will have to find the original article but I am sure it is PubMed, but due to the inbreeding of pit bulls, they have a mutation in the testosterone locus, or possibly the receptor. Meaning the regulation of testosterone is unstable in male pitbulls. In female pitbulls, it probably is not a big deal until she gets past her breeding.

Yes, this aggressive behavior must take training. But how OLD ARE THEY?


The dogs are more easily to be trained for aggression. The research scientists do not know why this may occur. Learning is a part of the norepinephrine system and gross aggression is a part of the dopamine system in the brain. Is is possible that teststerone to the hippocampus and pituitary could affect these two systems that are maybe unstable.

Pitbulls could be sweet dogs, but when they age, all those processes may be activated if not taught control. Similar processes occurs in humans.

[hijack]
One thing I've always wondered about was how the children of serial killers end up. Are there any studies following up on them? If so, how have the majority of them turned out?

[/hijack]

No one has examined them because they usually kill themselves before authorities find them.

There were studies lonnnnggggg time ago on convicts. Because the doctors and others failed to get informed consent, then they caused human rights violations.

What I remember from reading some of those 1950's/1960's studies, was there were quite a few criminals that had the YY chromosome arrangement...

I know about the YY chromosome, but I was more interested in people like Ted Bundy's daughter, or others like her. It would be an interesting study...

I think there are studies about the children of criminals generally being more likely to go to prison, which makes sense because you'd get some combination of nature and nurture. But I don't think I've ever read about with serial killers.

For some reason, a couple of years ago, I read a lot of books about profilers. I think it was a combination of watching too much true crime TV and hearing a really interesting NPR report about some young teenage boys in Chicago being wrongly convicted (some even confessed to a crime they didn't commit), and what had put them in the suspect pool was a profile created based on the Central Park jogger. So I made the mistake of reading several books about some of the earliest FBI profilers and their big cases. (I don't think I slept for about three months because what I read scared me so bad.)

But the early profilers did conduct interviews with any serial killers that were still alive, and they did seem to find patterns in their lives and behaviors. And I think that if they noticed a pattern of similar behavior in their children, it would have been mentioned.

They did find that torturing animals as children was pretty much universal.

I agree:mad:

I am usure is Ted Bundy had a defined disabiling psychosis transmitted genetically, i.e. Parkinson's or Schizophrenia. I think his psychosis was purely environmental--I think he was physically and sexually abused as a child. Most children that grow up that way, become deranged sexual predators that serial kill, unless caught at an early age and heavily treated. Something about the sexual abuse that makes them confused and angry with themselves causing maladaptations to function in "normal soceity"...

These kinds of things ARE NOT seen in the Animal Kingdom. Animals normally fight each other to the death due to way too much hormones flying around associated with maleness. NOT ALL animals, but a lot of them. The research focuses on sex--those males that have sex with everything on site vs. the pair bond. And in some cases, switching the neurohormonal regulation in the voles and rats, makes the lab animals prefer the same sex...

Pitbull males even if untrained will fight after 3-6 months of age. You just keep them separated.

What Vick did from my readings, is grossly atrocious. PETA should have his head on a platter rather than ours...

Add that to the list of foolish things you say that don't make sense. If you create a breed that bleeds to death within 1 year, most people would think that you should ban that breed. These dogs were bred to kill and fight. Preventing this time of genetic manipulation is perfectly acceptable.

-Rudey
--No wonder you got dumped.

so has nike dropped him yet? i'd rather see that happen. screw the nfl. the real money is in endorsements.

i'm just so happy to see that EVERYBODY is upset about this. its probably a good thing that certain offenses are universally unacceptable.

- m