Poaching Legacies
 

Is poaching another group's legacy a big deal at your campus?

It's kinda neat when another sorority's legacy comes back to you. But then your sorority's legacies are bound to go elsewhere, too.
We did have a great-great-great niece of a founder cut us after first round. We were disappointed she didn't even give us a chance. Oh, well.:cool:

I do appreciate the challenge of "poaching" a legacy, as it were, but I've had more frustrating experiences with that than anything.

For every legacy we've poached, we've had many more legacies string us along, which is frustrating. We've had many legacies come through and go out of their way to swear that they weren't just interested in their sister's/mom's/cousin's chapter, and in some cases emphasizing that they weren't interested in their family member's chapter at all (trust me, this information was offered by the PNM without prodding on our part, we knew better than to ask).

So of course we have to take that at face value. Since we liked these girls, we kept them, and kept them, at the expense of another woman who wanted to be there. Of course, it was telling when the legacy would go out of her way to let the other chapters know that she didn't really want her family member's chapter, only to pref at AXO and her legacy chapter - hmm..... Later, we found out that most of these women only wanted their legacy chapter all along and were "grooming" us to be the fallback chapter in case the legacy chapter didn't work out.

Their insincere interest is really frustrating. It's better for a legacy PNM to just keep their mouth shut and avoid the subject than to fake enthusiasm for a chapter or to lie about their legacy chapter. I mean, yeah, I'm sure these legacy PNMs might have been worried they'd be heavily cut for their legacy status, but we honestly thought that some of these women were interested in Alpha Chi for it's own sake due to how enthusiastic they appeared, not just interested in us a distant second to their legacy chapter.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, I know it's kind of an unfair generalization but I'm kind of bitter about those experiences.

One reason I wondered: I know of so many legacies being cut early on by their legacy chapters. Since the sororities usually don't know where a PNM is returning (at least at really big schools), it seems like a lot of girls are being cut because the other groups assume that they're headed for a bid from their legacy chapters, when actually they were cut after first invitationals.

If I were NPC Queen for a Day, and had the power to change the minds & actions of every chapter (!), I would open the eyes of every sister and make them realize that the Legacy system has somehow got to expand!

In the last year alone, I've heard of chapters who literally had more legacies than Quota R-ing, legacies who were cut by their mothers'/sisters' chapter just prior to Pref, IN HOUSE legacies cut, and all sorts of nasty R-ing. It's got to stop, and the sooner, the better.

Maybe those schools with more legacies that Quota need to add another chapter - it blows my mind that schools who have over 200 members only have 9-10 chapters! In the long run, that's probably the same amount of PNMs involved as, say Illinois or Penn State. ADD A CHAPTER - it will NOT hurt your prestige!! Maybe some of the double legacies will have a better chance, because that new chapter will be a legacy chapter, too!

Well, I could go on and on, as the legacy situation as it stands is my pet peeve, but I have a 60th wedding anniversary to attend. Expect me to add more later!!

Now, I've never had direct experience with recruitment since release figures were fully implemented, but I would guess that all the groups are aware that certain groups seems to have a couple of new member classes worth of legacies going through at each year at the really big recruitments.

My point is that all the other chapters would also know that at least two thirds (or more) of the XYZ legacies were going to end up elsewhere, so it wouldn't make sense to release a girl you were interested in simply because she was a XYZ legacy. Now if you happened to know that a particular girl is an in house legacy or that she had an "XYZ or I'm dropping out of rush attitude," that's another story.

I think things are so intensely competitive for some chapters at big recruitments that the other groups probably take a wait and see attitude as much as they can about the legacies from these groups. And for the chapters that are pressured to make massive cuts because of release numbers, personally, I think they probably know who they want long before recruitment even starts and that legacy status isn't playing that big a role, period.

Huge deal. It was considered a big accomplishment if you could poach a legacy from a rival sorority....especially if that legacy's sister was a current member of the rival sorority!

This would actually decrease quota...not sure I understand how that would help.

Sorry for the double-post, but at Illinois, they did not tell us who was a leg to what chapter, unless it was ours. Is it common practice at most schools to make that info public?

The information forms used by the colleges I attended and later was an advisor to had a place to list family greek ties - so everyone would know which houses you were a legacy to if you listed it on the general form.

DeltaBetaBaby,

It's been a long time since I've see any on-campus recruitment forms, but UGA used to disclosed it to all the chapters.

Also, the rec forms that groups get from alumnae also often mention the legacy connections, so the chapter would likely know even if Panhellenic had quit passing the information along.

(It's probably on an local Panhellenic recruitment information form.)

Legacy poaching is a big deal at my D's campus and I say why not, IF the groups at the campus aren't emphazing legs?

My D made the effort to get recs from each house on her campus. Because of this, we looked at all the HQ websites and downloaded MIFs where they were available so we could see what the GLOs wanted for info. Every MIF that we saw (not just the panhel form) ask if you have NPC relatives and if so who and to which house. I don't think it would have been honorable for her to lie and say no affiliation but at the same time then XYZ knew she was a legacy.

Not only have I seen this, I've also seen them string a chapter along as a "spy." They'd fake interest in their legacy chapter's rival on campus just to try and get them to commit an infraction. Then pledge the legacy chapter and file the infraction - just to get the rival chapter in trouble.

Because if (random example) the rushee at LSU is both a KKG and AXO legacy, and they add AXO, that would be another place for her to go to.

The prob is, at the type of school's honeychile's talking about, all the info I've gotten from GC makes me believe they could add every other NPC group that isn't there and it wouldn't help the situation. These girls want to be XYZ (or maybe 1 or 2 other groups) or nothing at all.

A lot of this has to start with the parents, too - if they bring their daughter up believing that Mu Mu is the best sorority, PERIOD, regardless of the chapter or who the girl/sisters like at rush, they might be setting her up for a lot of unhappiness.

I remember thinking, "man, if I went to mom's legacy chapter, that would really put a LOT of pressure on my daughter if I ever had one," and "what if they only take me because I'm a legacy and I don't fit well at all?"

So I dropped her group, early, and she got over it.

Snaps

At Long Beach, it was common practice to let every chapter know if a girl was a legacy to any particular GLO.

My senior year, we had an in-house SK legacy go through (daughter of one of our advisers) and the daughter of a GPhiB adviser go through. We ended up with the GPhiB legacy and our in-house legacy went DZ.

We didn't go in thinking we were going to steal the legacy from another chapter but we didn't discourage them either from coming to our side. ;)

I know (from helping out as an alum this year) that the sororities on my campus were only given information as to who was a legacy to their particular sorority and not any of the others on campus. I personally think it's a good rule so that each sorority can really focus on their legacies (and the other rushees for that matter!) without worrying whether a girl was going to go to their chapter or XYZ if she's a legacy there.

When I was in school, we got information about each girl's legacy status (regardless of whether it was our sorority or not). I do remember some girls in particular who were legacies to 2 chapters on campus and people saying "well, her sister is an XYZ, but she's a legacy to us through her Mom and Grandma, so we should try to *steal* her from them". Um, it's not about 'stealing' it's about getting the girls you want to come back!

Obviously, it's hard for a girl who is an in-house legacy to go through recruitment undetected when her sister is still an active...but I guess that can't be helped. I know that this year, there was a girl who went through recruitment at my school whose sister was still in school. She did not join her sister's chapter (and didn't seem to be affected by the other chapters knowing who her sister was). I also know of another girl who was in-house to 2 separate chapters on campus (since she had 2 older sisters who each joined different houses)--and she joined a completely different house (there are only 6 on campus). So it obviously doesn't seem to affect things too much on my campus. I'm sure there are questions about whether a girl will return if she's an in-house legacy--but no chapter should presume that since a girl is in-house that she'll go to her in-house legacy chapter. That holds true ESPECIALLY when the rushee's older sister/Mom/Grandmother/whoever is no longer in the chapter. As we all know, chapters change over time.

I think the rec forms should only say if a PNM is a legacy to a particular chapter. Like if my imaginary biological little sister were going through recruitment and got a rec for ZTA, the rec would not list that she is a SK legacy. From all of the stories about legacies getting cut hard for no reason other than chapters making incorrect assumptions about the legacies' preferences, it seems that knowing a PNM's legacy status at other chapters does more harm than good. I know that the general registration has PNMs list all legacy affiliations, but with ICS, only your chapter's legacies are visible.

I understand that from the PNMs perspective, you are right: other chapters knowing her legacy status doesn't really benefit her, but from the chapter's perspective is is helpful to know. On the most positive level, you know that she has an understanding of the involvement and responsibilities of Greek Life.

On a less positive level, release figures make a successful recruitment a guessing game even for the most successful chapters. You have to invite back the girls who you really want who also have your group as their number one choice, and some groups get very little cushion in terms of numbers. Any indication you might get that a pnm has an affinity elsewhere could helpful to know, in cases for which you have nothing else of merit to go with.

I think rec forms should tell the GLO everything that they can to add to the information the group could get about the PNM as long as it's accurate, and other legacies chapters is worth knowing, I think.

It would decrease quota with each recruitment but in time it would also make each chapter smaller as well which I think is what she is getting at. Chapters at my school were capped at 70 members. I liked it because I learned who everyone was. I may not have been close to everyone, but I knew everyone and a few things about each one. I cant imagine what it must be like with a chapter with 200 members!

I have to agree with you Honeychile, but a chapter with 70 members can't support the big houses that these big big chapters have at a lot of schools. Also, it's the PNMS who drop out rather than pledge a newer or smaller chapter. Example: Ole Miss, which has tried and tried to keep chapters, but they just can't pledge enough and there is no where else to build a house. There are chapters at Ole Miss, Alabama and Auburn that are approaching 300 members. That's a small industry, not a sisterhood.

Well the only evidence that it might be possible to lower chapter size down to 70 and still run in the black is the fact that fraternities on the same campuses often with similarly sized houses can be financially solvent at much lower numbers.

But you're right even if it were sustainable from the financial perspective, it wouldn't work: it's so hard for a new group to break into that system and make it. The traditions of the groups are so strong.

On campuses where expansions take, adding groups is a great idea. But at Old Miss or even Mississippi State, good luck to ya! It's not a coincidence they don't have more groups.

So working with what we know, is it better to have big chapters or do something like Ohio State's firm total to keep the size under control?

I think a girl is better off in a huge chapter than not getting to be Greek at all.

I agree that campuses with ever growing Greek systems should be looking to expand. It's a blessing and a curse having these incredibly large pledge classes year in and year out. It's wonderful to have a strong Chapter and an overall strong Greek system, but the sheer numbers make it difficult to manage the group as a whole.

Bama's in that situation with Chapter size and quota climbing each year. This year is looking to be no different. We are talking about expansion but can't until the University can offer comperable locations for housing. For anyone who is familiar with the campus, that's a big challenge, though there are a few possibilities. Point being, until that's available we can't expand. At the earliest in 2-3 years from what I've been told.

I was also told by our former Greek Advisor that the Univ wouldn't just expand by 1. They want 2 so that no one group is the "low man on the totem pole". So once space is available then we'll then go through the expansion selection process. Rumors (emphasize that) I've heard is that while almost every GLO that isn't currently on campus would love to come there are financial considerations that make them a bit hesitant. I've also heard it will take $1 mill +/- to build a comperable house.

ETA: I almost forgot. The GA also said that once the Board of Trustees approves a site for new housing it would be offered first to the current sororities if they wish to build a new house. A Chapter could then sell their old house to one of the new expansions. What I don't know is how it would be decided which Chapters would get to do this if there are more interested than there is space available. Highest bid? Random drawing? I'm also not sure how many would want to. /eta

Another thing worth mentioning, I was told by our accountant at least 10 years ago that our break even point for operating our physical chapter house was 120. Inflation and an aging house surely have affected that number, but we also have increased room and board fees over the years. I'm not sure if that's still an accurate number and I probably need to find out. Point being, the problem is not just whether a new sorority's International has the money to fund building a new house, but will the Chapter then be able to recruit enough members year in and year out to maintain it and service the expected mortgage?

Then we also have to factor in that it is a highly competitive campus for Recruitment. It could be difficult for any new or even returning sorority to get a strong foothold. Other rumored concerns are that while maybe the first few years they may pledge strong numbers due to the newness/excitement, but will it last? From my own experience here I can't tell you how many pnm's we see each year who say "I'm going XYZ/Old Row or nothing." I hope that this mindset can be overcome, but face it on a campus with such strong traditions it could be tough.

Please don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Bama expand. But it's easier said than done both here and on similar campuses.

"Poaching!" I love the term -- never heard it called that regarding legacies.

Not that I'm competitive (well, maybe just a wee little bit!), but I did take great pleasure in rushing and pledging other group's legacies.

I can think of two "success" stories from when I was a collegian:

"Jan" was the great-grandaughter of a founder of Phi Mu. Her mother called her before pref and said she was "polishing the badge" for her. She joined Chi Omega and was a very happy, active member and alumna. Her freshman year she was Homecoming Queen!

"Pam" got a strong rush from Chi Omega, but pledged Phi Mu. We continued to remain friends throughout her freshman year. She depledged Phi Mu before her initiation and joined Chi Omega the next year during formal rush. She later served the chapter as an officer and was a Miss Mercer contestant.

You think I was a good poacher??!?

I wouldn't say we rushed other sorority's legacies with the intent to steal them away, but if the PNM legacy was amazing and a good fit for us, then the fact that we "stole" her from her legacy sorority was a buzz within our chapter.

When I saw this thread, I actually thought of one of my chapter sisters right away-- Jill. In addition to having great grades and actvities, as well as being positively adorable, she was also a triple ZTA legacy, and we all knew it.

So on Bid Day, when we got our Bid List, we cheered as our president read Jill's name out loud-- you heard whispers of, "That's the triple ZTA legacy!" throughout... but it isn't like we'd go over to another sorority and taunt them or brag-- I don't think any UCF chapter would dream of doing that b/c all of our members have close friends in other chapters. We were just very excited about our new sister.

Jill was an ADPi through and through. One year during Spirit Week (what we call Work Week), everyone was stressing out, she got one of those toddler towels at Target-- you know, the towels that have an animal face for the hood? Anyway, she had the lion towel draped over her head (she was really teeny!) and skipped around the house, sneaking up on people shouting, "Roar!!! Smile, you guys!!!" It cheered everyone up! :)

And of course, it was always exciting when we welcomed our own sorority legacies to our chapter, especially if their legacy sister joined us for initiation!

That's because they spend nothing on the house
 

[quote=AlphaGamUGAAlum;1486420]Well the only evidence that it might be possible to lower chapter size down to 70 and still run in the black is the fact that fraternities on the same campuses often with similarly sized houses can be financially solvent at much lower numbers.

But you wouldn't let your daughter live in one:). Girls cost more because they want things like working plumbing and pest control.

[quote=estherjb;1505280]LOL!!!! How true!!!!!:D

retro rush questions
 

ok, this is a retro rush question story....a friend told me a story and I couldn't answer Her sister rushed at a SEC school for formal rush and had recs and was a double legacy.

She made it thru 2nd round and then nothing.

She eventually pledged a house during informal rush.

A sister told her that many were cut during that formal rush due to the new computers used to issue invitations.

So, this explanation made her feel better.

Does anyone know if this happened when computers came onto campuses?
(current sisters please don't laugh these days did used to exist)

I'm pretty sure that "it's the computer's fault" is the sorority rush equivalent to "the dog ate my homework. "

Any actual computer errors are probably due to things like 2 people with the same name or human error during input.

[COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]Also, on the off-chance there was a mistake and someone didn't show up on a list when they should have, the sororities were definitely telling Panhellenic ASAP so the mistake could be rectified. [/COLOR]

Fall of 1983 recruitment at CSULB had at least 6 chapter legacies going through rush and 3 of them were for my DG chapter. Two were sibling legacies but my sister was a double legacy and our mother was a charter member of the chapter. All of the houses knew about the unusual number of legacies that year and were ready to do their best to recruit them to another chapter! In the end all of the legacies ended up pledging their legacy house. (However part of this rush story needs to be placed in the thread for "weird recruitment stories!"

At UCLA, listing your legacy chapters is part of the registration form. (I think it's at all the UC schools.) But I know that some PNMs do NOT list their legacy status so it won't impact them in a negative way. (ie "She keeps going back to her legacy chapter, so let's cut our losses and concentrate on the PNMs that we are sure like our chapter.") This way, only her legacy chapters know that she's a legacy and the other chapters have a more open mind.

A couple of years ago at the U of Alabama, Panhel decided to block the legacy info on the forms. The legacy chapter can see the info, but no other sorority can.
Of course, you still get a lot of that info from recommendations, so you know about those.
Normally blaming it on computer glitches is just a bunch of smoke. But it does occasionally happen.

There's always somebody else to blame, though. Like the girl who blamed our alumnae panhellenic because she was told her favorite top-tier chapter dropped her because they didn't get a rec on her.
Never mind that the alumnae panhellenic does not send recs, just hands them to the local sorority rep, and cannot recommend anybody to any sorority. Never mind that it was the local alum who didn't send a rec (or chose not to). It was still our fault.

Must... Quit... Reading... Cookbooks!


That was our feeling, too. I can think of two women in my chapter who went on to be outstanding sisters, one of whom was a Tri-Delta in-house legacy, the other Tri-Sigma.

And of course, there were ADPi legacies who chose another house, too. Right, KillarneyRose?!?!?!

Yes. I thought, "Do you serve them on toast?":D:D

One I remember distinctly from my senior year - our president's older sister had been in our chapter, and so her younger sister came through recruitment as a double in-house legacy.

Poor younger sister had been cut by all other 14 chapters by the third of four rounds. It was confirmed from two other chapters she was dropped because the other chapters knew her older sister was our president, and no one wanted to steal the president's little sister. We (especially pres) felt really guilty this happened to YS, a bubbly smart girl who would have thrived anywhere, but YS didn't get the chance to choose at all where she went. She went on to be a wonderful active, and just went alum :)

To be honest, we also sort of cheated out of earning our double-legacy - where's the win when they "let" you win?!