Spirituality and Character in Fraternities...
 

I am fairly new to greekchat, so please bear with me if don't quite know what I'm doing!

I am a Kappa Sig. It is no secret that our national fraternity has its roots in a spiritual background (specifically Christianity).

There was a thread sometime back in which greeks were unhappy about their jewelry (particuarly membership badges) being sold on ebay. Is anyone besides me disturbed by some of the really lewd t-shirts that are sold there? I run a check from time to time on "Kappa Sigma" to see what is selling on ebay, and I would be ashamed to tell you what some of the Kappa Sig pledge and party shirts say on them. This sort of thing is completely against the spirit of our founders, I know that. I would NEVER wear a shirt like some of those I've seen...and I wouldn't allow a son of mine to pledge a chapter where the guys had so little self-respect that they would wear them.

What do you think? I'd particuarly like to hear from some Kappa Sigs about this. "The star and cresent shall not be worn by any man," right? Our creed says we are to be gentlemen and men of God. Do we still believe this, or is it time to change the creed? Is it time to put a new character education program in place?

Phil
elwoodpfiggs@hotmail.com

Phil in answer to your question, most of us as GLOs were Founded with some sort of Religious back ground.

Yes, there is GLO Badge/Pins being sold on EBay!

I am as I am need of money to live on.:(

I am trying to get to My Fellow Brothers to buy them. I have bought certain Pins for a Historic value for My Chapter. I have gotten some threatening emails and it is a shame.:mad:

If they feel so bad, then why not bid on them as I put them on at low prices:confused:

Well, I think I will go dine now!;)

I agree with you about what seems to be to be misuse of letters. But some people are Greek because they love it and some are only to "have fun".

A stupid question...
 

What does GLO stand for? Phil

Earp: King of "It's all about me"
Greek Letter Organization

Either is fine.

As far as t-shirts go, I recently wrote a column about vulgar language in society today. It's not just GLOs - I'm amazed at what people wear in public.
I wouldn't want to wear anything that would reflect badly on me, my GLO, my college, or Greeks in general. I suspect I am a distinct minority, however.
It's not that I don't appreciate the humor in some of them - I just think they cheapen the image of the org.
JMHO -

Thank you. I agree.

They can also cheapen the image of the person wearing them.

As far as embodying the creeds and ritual of GLOs - I think it is the same for any group. You have some to whom it is important, and who work to incorporate it into their lives. You have some who are only interested in the more social aspects - but one can hope that the more spiritual elements might make an impression. You can plant a seed - and it may not flower for years. Still, it is there. I taught at a Christian school. Many of our students were there simply because their parents made them go to get a good education. You would be amazed how many of them, years later, went into the ministry or became active in their churches, and point to the influence of the school. So it is with GLOs. Sometimes the character and spirituality aspects may not seem to make an impression - but look at how many alumni turn around and commit themselves to the GLO years after college.
I would hope that whatever draws you to the GLO, the larger, lasting elements are what are going to stay with you.

I'd just like to say SECOND - for fraternity AND sorority shirts. I was raised to know that no matter what, I am always representing something to someone, even if it isn't always apparent to me that I am, and that I have to always be aware of that fact. You stand for something whether you want to or not, and so you have to be conscious of what you're choosing to stand for. Sometimes I don't think people think about that.

This brings up an issue I have wondered about. Many Christian fraternities have caught flack from regular fraternities for calling themselves Christian. Many fraternities say well we are built on Christian beliefs which is completely true. My response though is if you are offended by the fact you are Christian and we refer to ourselves as a Christian fraternity, then act like it. Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. So I have a kinda side question to this one. If you are Christian and in a regular GLO do you have a problem wearing a shirt that has questionable content on it.

See above.

If you're organization has class, then you shouldn't have to worry about it.

I think a lot of it depends on your campus culture. On my campus, religion is emphasized in the fraternity. We pray together, go to church services together, etc. For that reason, it does sort of bother me when an organization came to our school calling itself a "Christian Fraternity." Saying so implies that since they call themselves "Christian," and emphasize Christianity, they must be unique in that aspect of their existence which implies we (other IFC fraternities) must not be spiritual.. or at least, that's the message that I imagine the campus at-large gets.

It's not their fault of course. They are what they are. I suspect they were founded to counter the behavior of some of these groups the OP was complaining about and provide a home for men who wished to belong to a GLO, but didn't want their experience to include anything which might compromise their morals.

In the end, I'm not really sure it affects us much. Our chapter does most of its recruiting during the summer, so most kids don't even hear about Christian fraternities until its too late. I'm assuming the Christian fraternities get most of their kids from the Baptist Student Union (a big deal at my school for some reason), so we're not exactly competing for the same guys.

Anyhow.. bottom line, do what you do.. I'm just uncomfortable with what is implied when one group calls itself "Christian" while others do not.

Some of the Christian organizations seem to have more of an "attitude" about it than others. I think as long as you handle it well, it shouldn't be an issue. But there was an incident on my undergrad campus where a member of a Christian sorority was asked by a member of an NPC sorority about the significance of the label, noting that her sorority was founded on Christian principles as well. The Christian sorority member's response was "The difference is we don't drink and we don't have sex." Um ... yeah. Nice.

Wow..not to hijack, but the Bible says nothing about abstaining from drinking. It just talks about drunkenness being a sinful thing.

I've actually heard some people talk about wine in the Bible actually being grape juice. How freaking ignorant is that?

I don't think it's a matter of ignorance - more that they're saying that the word that meant "wine" really properly translated means "juice from grapes." For the record, I don't agree, but I'm just saying it's not necessarily something someone's pulling out of the air to make it sound like wine = bad.

I think it's an indication of ignorance of the times though. VERY fresh grape juice might be ok, but you have to ferment the stuff to keep it safe to drink. (There's a reason why people drank beer and not water throughout much of history and it's not for the taste.)

It has to be remembered that until 1869, when Thomas Bramwell Welch came up with a method of pasteurization that prevented the fermentation of grape juice, "grape juice" was simply newly-pressed wine that hadn't fermented yet. There was no way, short of drinking it, to keep it from fermenting (or spoiling).

The reality is that most of the Hebrew or Greek words usually translated as "wine" in English Bibles suggest at least some level of fermentation. Nevertheless, there are those who argue that when the Bible refers to "new wine," for example, it is referring to juice of the grape that hasn't fermented yet.

It should also be remembered that when Alexander conquered Palestine, the people there adopted the Greek custom of diluting wine with water.

Kevin -- There are about 10 different Hebrew words and 4 different Greek words that are typically translated into English as "wine," "new wine," "strong drink," or the like. Use of these words is not limited to warnings against drunkenness -- think of the wedding at Cana, for example.

The argument that some people make is that some of those 14 terms may not necessarily refer to fully-fermented wine, but may instead refer to the juice of grapes (or other fruits, like pomegaranites) that either has not begun fermenting or is only slightly fermented. Most scholars disagree with that argument.

I've never heard anybody suggest that all of the wine mentioned in the Bible was non-alcoholic. (I have, however, heard suggestions that Jesus would only partaken of the "not-yet-fermented" wine. :rolleyes:)

/detour

Ahh, but "Drunkeness" could also be translated to "happy" in some archaic language, too, I suppose. :p

He was the Vegan of his time. You know, those annoying buggers who insist that everything be made special for them. (I keed, I keed)

Wine, etc.
 

Hi! This is Phil again -- the new guy who started the thread.

On the subject of wine in the Bible, here is a thought: I think that the water that Christ turned into wine was probably actual wine, not just grape juice. If you remember the story, the wine that Christ provided was very good, which led the wedding guests to question why the best wine had been saved until the end of the feast. My understanding of this is that the really good wine was traditionally served earlier in the evening and the cheap stuff was saved for later when the guests would have been less discerning of its inferior quality.

I think it was Kevin who pointed out that the Bible does not openly condem drinking, only drunkeness. (Wasn't it Paul who wrote that a little wine each day is good for you?) However, the Bible DOES talk about repecting the law and the leadership of one's country. Underage drinking, then, is not consistent with that mandate -- that is my opinion, anyway.

In addition to the t-shirts on ebay, I am also unhappy that there have been actives in my own chapter in recent years who have had their girlfriends live with them for the summer in the chapter house. Speaking in a strictly practical way, this is a lawsuit waiting to happen! That aside, premarital sex in the house really goes against our historical roots. I'm not even sure that most acitves realize this.

There has probably always been premarital sex in frats, but at least there used to be some shame attached to it. People realized they were doing wrong and that if they were caught there would be punishment. I don't think that is particuarly true anymore. Guys are pretty open about the fact that their girlfriends are living with them. Bring back those blue-haried housemothers of the old days!

Speaking of housemothers/fathers, I'm just not convinced that a senior who has graduated in May is likely to be an effective housefather the following fall. I'm sure some of them are, but I'll bet many are not very successful as disciplinarians/moral examples. If I had a son who wanted to move into a house where the housefather had been a senior in the active chapter just a few months before, I think I would consider that the boys in that house were living more or less unsupervised. Maybe I'm being unfair, do you think?

Phil

Phil:

And I must note that there are many fine fraternity members who do take their organizations seriously.

These are just my observations. I wonder what some of these org.'s founders would think or say regarding their members actions and motives today.


Please note that I mean no offence to anyone or to any organization.:)[/QUOTE]

None taken; you were very diplomatic and insightful in what you said.

Good to hear from you, and congratulations on starting your college career. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed mine.

I am glad to hear that you are looking at fraternities. Shop around, however, and see if you can find what you're looking for: a place where you will fit in and where your beliefs will be not just tolerated but respected.

(By the way, I clicked on the link to your photography. You are really good! Will you study this in college?)

Phil

the bible is so boring and everybody knows its fake anyway. i saw a thing on the discovery channel about it.

The Bible boring??
 

I can't say I agree with you, Fratty; some of the most exciting stories I know are in the Bible!

As for the show on the Discovery Channel...I haven't seen it. I'd like to, though. The folks who made it (the show) may have had some preconceived notions before they started; I wouldn't be surprised if they did not have a few biases/prejudices of their own. I suppose the Discovery Channel is just like all other networks: trying to keep their content compelling to reenforce ratings. Advertising is the name of the game, so you've got to keep people watching!

(This is off topic, but didn't things get out of hand/downright MEAN on the thread about whether fraternities help guys find girlfriends? It got way off topic, and then people got really hateful. I don't there's any reason for that. It's not what I come here looking to find, so I'm just not going back to that thread.)

Phil

Phil, surely you didn't take his post seriously. 'Cause it wasn't worth taking seriously. :rolleyes:

While it is not wrong to consider those shirts and slogans ill toward the overall image of a sacred organization, it also should not be construed as malicious or anti-religious. Christianity does say that what comes out of the mouth is born from the heart--and all expressions, including shirts, would likely be included in that idea. Pretty much all the other religions have the same idea. But someone who doesn't follow this probably shouldn't be considered evil.

Many (most?) members of Fraternity & Sorority Life do not join because of the creeds or oaths. They join because of the social aspect presented to them--that's how most organizations rush. Even rule-full sororities tend to have girls just go around talking to sisters. What do those sisters say? They say what they do--what's fun about the sorority--not usually the incredible power of everlasting principles to live by and enforce between each other.

Most college students are not inclined to limit the freedom of speech or expression in any way and often enjoy testing its limits. Any effort to tell a fraternity that the "Rush XYZ--We Like It On Top" or whatever is contrary to the principles will likely not work. Calmly asking them not to do it--50/50.

Ignoring the Fraternity & Sorority Life side of it, I'd chalk it up to someone seeing a TV show he or she doesn't like it because it's offensive. Then don't watch it. Everyone is offended by something.

One the Fraternity & Sorority Life side of it, they're having some fun. They don't mean any harm. Educate them--they'll learn eventually.

Few people join our organizations because we preach to them--they join because they want to have fun and have a great experience. Things like the character of the organization being threatened--these are things alumni and alumnae are concerned with.

Our principles, creeds, etc. are indeed sacred and important as are the values of any religion or organization--but they're never going to be 100% followed by 100% of the members. We wouldn't need each other or our organizations if people were like that.

Well i don't know about all the Christian fraternities. I know at BYX you have to be of legal age and not a pledge. You can't drink wearing your letters or if you are an officer. I don't make it a big issue the Christian fraternity thing. I do have a problem with other fraternities that don't act Christian getting offended by the Christian fraternity thing. You are right for the most part the Christian fraternities don't compete for the same guys that regular fraternities compete for. I know usually we don't rush the same times regular fraternites do, because we just don't really do it. Vanderbilt BYX has done it and done it successfully. They have led all fraternities in recruitment for 2 years. The way I see it, is that there is no reason that there aren't enough guys rushing for everyone. I just have a hard time understanding why so many regular fraternities attack Christian fraternities etc.

BYX, if you want to know, please see my earlier comments regarding the fact that many if not most of us are goody-two-shoes much like you.

The drinking in letters thing has zero to do with Christianity, btw.

In addition to what Kevin said above, with which I agree, I think you may have inadvertently hit on part of the reason yourself.

I've had no firsthand experience with BYX, so please don't take this as criticism of your org. The "Christian" fraternities and organizations that I have been exposed to, however, have represented a fairly narrow slice of Christianity -- specifically, the conservative, more fundamentalist slice. They did not have wide appeal for mainline Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. Yet more than once, I ran into the attitude that if one did not embrace their specific manifestation of Christianity, both in belief and behavior, one was not really Christian.

Frankly, that experience makes me wonder what you mean by "other fraternities that don't act Christian." I also wonder if what you consider not acting Christian would match up with I consider not acting Christian.

Rightly or wrongly, perhaps some see an implicit assertion just by the existence of "Christian fraternities" that one cannot be in a "regular fraternity" if one is "really Christian."

Article on BET.com
 

A student renounces his letters because he believes that Greekdom takes away from being spiritual

http://www.bet.com/News/GreekLifeGod...ionUnpublished

^^^^ The article mentions Minister Fred Hatchett. Many here at GC remember him all too well.

Yeah, Hatchett is a nutjob. He doesn't even belong in this conversation.

My 2 cents
 

This has been an interesting read; I thought I would throw in my 2 cents:

If you are not a born-again Christian, you don't know what it means to "act Christian" or possibly even what it means to be Christian. Therefore, when someone says you aren't Christian, it can be offensive...kind of like someone is telling you that you are a bad person.

That said, there are plenty of wonderful, good, kind human beings in this world who are not born-again Christians....just as there are many professing Christians who are not living their faith.

Just because you join an organization based on Christian values and ideals does not mean you are a Christian or that your organization is either. Someone can hold high the ideals of a faith but not be a believer. Works don't give you faith.

Is the reverse true? Someone who professes to be Christian lives their life in a way not purposely honoring God (not specifically dis-honoring God), is not a born-again, blood-bought Christian according to James 2.

We live our lives on purpose - is that purpose to honor God as a follower of Christ or is it something else?

OK - that's all for me.

And you prove my point. The label "born again Christian" used the way you used it, and some of the theological assumptions that tend to go along with it, is a term pretty much limited to the conservative, more fundamentalist slice of Christianity. As a life-long Presbyterian, I have never, ever heard the term used in Presbyterian circles -- it's just not how we talk. Likewise for my fairly extensive dealings with Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopal, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians.

So it's really not a matter of me thinking that someone is accusing me of being a bad person at all. It's a matter of someone telling me that I'm not really Christian simply because I do not share their particular understanding of what that means -- never mind that I do share the faith that the vast majority of Christians have professed for the last 2000 years.

And it's precisely that attitude that has led many people to be wary of some of the "Christian" groups on college campuses.

Yes, the term "born-again", referring to salvation, is most predominantly used in evangelical circles (It originated in John 3:3...it's not just a made-up label).

Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians have a vastly different opinion of when salvation occurs - baptism - than do Evangelicals - thus the differing opinion.

I believe regardless of the denomination, God calls us to be a body of believers.

Back to the actual question at hand...
 

If you say you believe something, it's time to turn those values into action! This may mean being more discerning while selecting members, better member education or maybe just a shift in chapter programming.

only reason why I think saying you can't be Greek and still believe in God is a crock:

One of my founders is a pastor....

A lot of our priciples are based on Christian beliefs.

If anything, one of the things I was taught in life as well as during my process is that you as a person should have a belief in something...u don't have to be a Baptist or whatever...but you should have a belief system that has been instilled since childhood.

Works for me....