Students don't get diploma due to excess cheering from crowd
 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070602/...uation_decorum

You know what, it saddens me of the lack of decorum we see here in graduation. I went to my sister's 8th grade graduation last week, and I was appalled at the lack of respect of the guest. I know it's only an 8th grade graduation, but still...
I have read a letter to the editor concerning this problem. I can't let you read it because I don't want to reveal the city because you guys will guess my school's name. But I tell you the letter in detail. The man and his sister-in-law was trying to shush up the people that were talking excessively. But the people had threatened them by saying "don't make me bring my hood out on you."

On another message board, there was this man who went to his son's graduation and there were excessive cheering that was constant.

I have seen other colleges come up with a system where if you make a whole lot of noise costantly, then you will get kick out from watching the ceremony. I wonder if they can do that in the schools. I mean graduation is a special time, and I hate it when people ruin it.

It is quite annoying when it's excessive. It felt good to hear my family and friends cheering for me, but they weren't yelling at "Yo das mah mama" or other loud, obnoxious cheering. A "woooo" is enough.

Personally, I don't think anything other than restrained applause is appropriate.

I think we're getting to the point at which we act like everything is a sporting event, and it's not.

A graduation ceremony should be dignified and sedate, and when people sound air horns or cowbells, like I heard at an honors night event this year- no joke, we should probably stop having the events at all or at least stop reading individual names.

Even if you don't buy in to the idea of decorum, when people freak out at their relatives' names, they often prevent the name of the next person from being heard and doing do is selfish and wrong.

I agree that there should be decorum, or at least not excessive cheering, however, the student has no control over the actions of the crowd. Throw the offending audience members out, but withholding a diploma, or requiring a student to do community service because of the actions of his or her family? Stupid.

It might seem stupid in the short term, but as long as there are people making sure they identify the actual guests of the graduate in question, this policy will be the most effective in the long run.

If your family is so proud of your graduation that they want to blast an air horn, they probably aren't going to risk your not getting a diploma because they made a bunch of inappropriate noise.

Many of the low class folks consider the ceremony over once their graduate's name is read anyway; getting kicked out then wouldn't be much of a penalty.

Plus, there are a lot of folks eager to make an even bigger scene when they get kicked out.

Really, following through with the graduate probably will work the best. If a graduate is worried that someone won't act right, she shouldn't invite him or her.

This assumes that the graduate gets to choose whether or not to invite her family. I'm pretty sure my parents made the guest list when I was in high school.

The statement the student makes in the last line of the article was one of the first things that I thought of. If there was some grudge against an individual, people could excessively cheer for that student and get that student in trouble. How do they prove that the excessive cheers were done by that person's family?

Right, but your parents probably wouldn't invite anyone likely to cause you to lose your diploma.

As far as it not really being that person's guests, I'm sure that can be checked out by the same folks doing the monitoring for crowd behavior. (Ticket numbers if they use tickets, using tickets in the future if they don't now.)

It's not that I think this policy is flawless, but do you really think those weren't her guests? Even she seems to express it as a "what if" kind of a statement.

Anyway, something needs to be done, and I applaud (and air horn) this school's efforts.

We didn't have tickets or invites or anything. Everybody knew when graduation was and everybody went. I had a class of over 700 and we had our graduation in the Pontiac Silverdome, which held 85,000 people. It would have been impossible to monitor.

I agree that something should be done, but to the guests, not the students. Students have no control over how their guests behave.

When my daughter was inducted into the National Junior Honor Society last week, some of us parents were teasing the girls in her group that we were going to hoot and holler when their names were called. The girls were horrified at the thought. Of course, we weren't going to really do it, but the looks on their 13 year old faces were classic when we threatened!

But they're the only ones the school can realistically expect to influence. And their guests could be influenced by them to act appropriately if they understood the consequences.

I think we're either going to go for free for all graduations will no expectations for behavior or we'll start to see tickets given to graduates and guest lists of people that the graduate accepts responsibility for.

I suspect that kicking people out for disruption and arresting people who refused to leave probably wouldn't play any better and would actually be worse, but I'm afraid that's the other option.

The note about your daughter touches on a point worth making: you all weren't going to really do it, but I think some of the bad behavior at graduation is against the graduates wishes. So let's empower them to choose their guests and hold them responsible for the ones that they do invite.

I agree.

I agree...and perhaps this should be communicated in a memo when people receive their tickets in the days *BEFORE* the event, so that they know the reason WHY they may clap, but nothing more "expressive". There are a lot of dense people out there....they need to have things like this pointed out & explained to them.

I don't think it happens because they don't know any better. It's because they don't care.

Sure, I think making accepting tickets contingent on following the behavior expectations would be great. Maybe they could sign something when they picked them up, and then when they were kicked out, officials could present it at court.

But I've been at many events at which announcements were made at the start of the event to absolutely no avail.

Some people don't care about others. If there's no penalty for them and theirs, they really don't give a flip about ruining the experience of others. Making a big scene and then getting kicked out wouldn't mar the day as far as they were concerned; it would just ruin it for everyone else.

I think if the school in question sticks with its policy, in a few years, its graduations will be excellent. But what I predict will happen is that all the kids will get their diploma on appeal, so people will learn that nothing really happens so they will keep doing it.

Sigh. Maybe we should just quit having them. Or have only private events put on by groups of the graduates who could set their own standards for behavior.

Edited again to add: I sit through at least one graduation a year; I know everything that the staff does to make the event go well: talking to the kids, sending home letter, announcements at the event. And every year, there are kids who screw it up and guests who screw it up. Why should it be so hard to do something nice? I honest believe that if we had the "act up and no diploma for your graduate" rule, it would work. We'd probably have to add tickets to make sure we knew which guest belong to which graduate, but I really believe it would change the decorum at the event.

It might work, but is it right? I don't think it is.

Yeah, I think it's right. If you ask them, you take responsibility for them.

If you think they won't act right, then don't invite them.

I think it's perfectly okay to make the graduates responsible for the people that they invite, and not to let in folks who weren't invited.

Just because you finished the eight grade or high school or even college, doesn't mean that folks who know you should get to interrupt the ceremony for others.

It's better to "punish" the graduates who invited them later than to further interrupt the middle of the ceremony to remove the trashy people although I have no objection to trying to punish the disruptive people too if you can figure out how.

One of the things I loved best about teaching at a small private Christian high school was our graduation. It was the Evening Prayer Service from the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer - 1928. It was beautiful, dignified, and a fitting celebration of an event that marks such an important milestone. Even so, and even though it is held in a church, they had to make sure the students, parents and family and friends realized that they were expected to behave in a manner befitting the dignity and importance of the ceremony.
The first public high school graduation I attended after working at this school was a shock - air horns, beach balls, cow bells, whooping and hollering - I don't know how they could get control of that many people. It really cheapened the recognition of the achievement of those hard-working students.

You're asking a 17 or 18 year old to say to their parents "Sorry, but I don't trust that you'll behave yourself so I'm not giving you tickets for graduation."

I don't see that flying in most households.

It is pretty challenging logistically, which is why I favor laying it all on the graduates and matching them by ticket to the folks in the audience.

Knowing that you could cause little Suzie to lose her diploma ought to motivate people to act right.

It's a shame that good behavior would have to be compelled in this way.

I think if the parents knew that their behavior could cost the diploma, the kid wouldn't have as much to worry about.

But yeah, if it came to that, I'd rather see the parents not go than mom or dad blast the air horn over some other kid's name.

Maybe the person who does the "name announcing" could pause to let the noise die down, so that the next person following could actually have their name heard by their family. The pauses would add up and take forever, but I guess you've got to do what you've got to do.

What you are suggesting is entirely reasonable, but if people were behaving reasonably no school would have gone to this holding the diploma thing.

Have you been to a graduation, particularly a high school graduation in the last few years?

Really, the stuff you are suggesting would work if the people in attendance weren't selfish jerks, but some of them are.

I honestly believe that if they figured you would wait for them to quiet down, it would become a contest in how long they could make noise. You see, it's all about them and their kids. They don't care about you or your kids or the decorum of the event. They think they are behaving in a positive and celebratory way and that it's their right to do so.

In the linked news story there were only five graduates who had guests who did anything excessive, and this was after they publicized this policy and the kids knew what would happen. Why not let them enforce it this way and get the excessiveness down to zero?

There's always some loser who can't follow the policy and then wants to appeal for sympathy when the consequences they were told would follow a given behavior actually happen. Don't give it to them. All the sad graduates should be told to get their sympathy from Aunt Sally with the air horn.

From the article:

"About a month before the May 27 ceremony, Galesburg High students and their parents had to sign a contract promising to act in dignified way. Violators were warned they could be denied their diplomas and barred from the after-graduation party."

There you have it folks. The only thing that's happened is that the school actually followed through.

My high school graduation was very.. um.. ceremonious... is that a word? It was very serious. And we were definitely warned that if we did anything to screw it up, we wouldn't get our diplomas. This included excessive cheering, tossing caps, etc. But then again, we didn't have the kind of crowd that would be hooting and hollering, and we also had a certain amount of tickets to give to family.

I'm glad to hear that not all of them have this problem. But maybe some of what you and SWTXBelle mentioned are what bothers me so much. I'm assuming that yours too might be a private school.

I really want to believe in public schools, and when things come up about how public school kids and parents can't act right, it really makes me sad in a bigger way than just air horns at graduation would bother me.

I don't want public education to only be for trashy people. But when you can't even conduct a graduation ceremony with decorum and seriousness, it makes me think that public education might really only be for the low class.

I went to public school.

I think one problem is the sheer size of the graduating class - when you have 600+ students graduating, the odds are higher that you will have some parents/family/friends who don't/won't behave.

[QUOTE=Alphagamuga;1459684]
I honestly believe that if they figured you would wait for them to quiet down, it would become a contest in how long they could make noise. You see, it's all about them and their kids. They don't care about you or your kids or the decorum of the event. They think they are behaving in a positive and celebratory way and that it's their right to do so.[QUOTE]

Yeah! Best quote ever! And it doesn't just apply to graduations but to a lot of what parents do, especially in the school arena. Because "it's all about them and their kids"!

I think you could ask the people to leave without having the students wait for a diploma.

I think this goes a bit too far, especially for a high school graduation. With a college graduation, I can understand it a bit more.

This gives me some hope! What did your school do to get these results?

I do think the size of the class is part of the issue.

Again, I regret that I seem so negative, but I really think those of you making such reasonable suggestions really have no idea what you are dealing with as far as irrational members of the public and how they deal with school officials. I get the feeling that Carnation does, but I'm sure we both wish we didn't.

It's not a really big section of the public school enrollment, in my opinion, but they pretty much ruin it for everyone else.

Some of the folks making noise are people who even when asked to leave aren't going to go until the cops come and get them, which let's face it, ruins the ceremony for everyone else even more.

They're going to test your authority time and time again. This school is trying to set up a policy in advance and then follow through to make the graduates choose their guests more carefully and to make sure that the guests know there are consequences that will follow if they act up.

I say more power to them and I hope they don't back down. If only five groups acted that way, it seems to me that the community will support the school's effort, and I hope they do. If they stick to their guns, they will be able to set the tone they want for graduation.

As far as it not mattering because it's high school, for some kids it's as far as they will go and they deserve a nice ceremony. Besides that, it's just not how people should act, period. You don't bring cowbells and air horns to ceremonies. We don't have to culturally dumb it down for the yahoos all the time, do we?

This is random, but I'll use an example from another thread to illustrate what I mean: right now, one person is explaining how lying to her GLO to get out of having to staying active when she wanted to go alum was what she needed to do. She admits she lied, but she details how she got around the policies of her group because it's what she wanted to do, and the group couldn't/didn't stop her.

I point that out as a particular illustration of there being some people who don't do what's right or even what they've agreed to do. They instead seem to operate with the idea that they are entitled to do whatever they can get away with.

The same type of thing happens with public behavior at graduation. Most people go along with what's expected. Other people go along because they feel like they've agreed to act a certain way based on being allowed to attend. But a few others seem to take the view that they are entitled to do whatever you can't actually stop them from doing.

So if they know the cops won't come and kick them out, they they will yell or do whatever. For these people, there always have to be a punishment or penalty that they know they will face for doing what other people would just do because it was good manners.

Rather than calling in the people to forcible remove people from the graduation ceremony, this school decided to go with a different but equally undesirable "or what?" or "who is going to make me?" consequence for the people who won't do what they were asked to do. They were going to hold the diplomas of the people they came to see graduate.

They told everyone the plan way in advance. They expected the jerks to modify their behavior as not to penalize the honoree, but the jerks didn't. Now the school just needs to follow through with what was spelled out as the consequence.

I think it's fine. Sooner or later, the jerks will stop being invited to graduation.

There's an etiquette advice columnist who I enjoy reading (Darcey Smart) and to quote her wise words:
"We live in a world where a hint of criticism is treated as an act of aggression and all and sundry feel entitled to behave any old way they like, with the exception of those of us who dare to speak up in defence of civility and are immeddiated muzzled for our pains."

But the penalty should always be a threat against the person committing the act, punishing someone else isn't just. What's to stop people who are pissed at another screaming then, preventing that person from getting their diploma?

That's how I feel about it too. Besides the fact that it puts a 17 or 18 year old in a horrible position to try to tell their parents that they can't come to graduation. I mean, the kid (and they are still kids, really) has to live with these people, is dependent on them financially and may well need their support to get to college, etc.

Tickets assigned to a specific graduate. If it's your guest, then you lose. So if you invite the folks who scream for someone else, you lose your diploma, not the person whose name was yelled at.

The graduate did commit an act. He or she invited the losers.

I've got no problem removing or arresting the guest too, but I think it will further ruin the ceremony for the people who have been acting appropriately. ("Graduation was nice this year;they only had to remove 30 guests by force.")

I think you've got to put it on the graduate, so they send the message too: "no, I really don't want you to scream at my name. That's not cool. I want my diploma." And the yellers need to believe that the graduate means it.

I think teenagers have a lot of influence on their parents. In fact, I think a lot of parents are downright manipulated by them. And it I think it's important to remember that the school is asking the parents too. The parents are welcome to come if they won't holler and blast air horns. If a teenager can't depend on his or her parents not to do something they've specifically been asked not to do, this won't be the last time the kids is in an awkward position because of them. And that's not a good enough reason to let them ruin the graduation ceremony.

This policy will work well to create future events with the decorum the rest of the school wants. It penalized the people over whom the school legitimately has control.

But here's the thing, the guest can easily ''lose" their tickets if that's an issue, and it'll come down to who they were cheering for. I don't know any high school graduation that has assigned seating.

We didn't have this problem in HS because our graduation is a Mass. But my precommencement in college did. Basically the guy just read the names very clearly into a mike. No one got covered up.

You have really negative view about teenagers and their parents. Believe me, the majority of people I know could not have controlled if their parents/relatives were going to come to graduation. Usually those people can get tickets on their own too.

And yes, it penalized the people the school has control over, but it penalized the wrong people. Removal from the property seems appropriate to me.

Isn't this how things work at most clubs or events?

If you are the member of the organization hosting and your guests do something outrageous, you can expect it to have repercussions for you, right? (Sure they might ask your guests to leave at the time, but that probably won't be the end of it.)

That's what my high school and college did. They would say 'Amy So and So' and then she would walk across the stage, get the diploma, do the handshake, pose, and go down the steps. By that point the clapping/yelling was done, so they'd then move on to 'Bob Sorrysoandso' and his family had time to do their thing.

Quite franky, I think behavior like this has something to do with the fact that graduation ceremonies aren't special anymore. They used to have them for high school and college, that was IT. Now, anything is a "milestone." Graduation from middle school or junior high. Graduation from summer camp. Graduation from any old grade. One of my friends just went to a kindergarten graduation, for God's sake. The next thing is going to be slapping a mortar board on a newborn's head to celebrate its "womb graduation."

Part of that as well could be that more people are going to college now. It used to be that high school was the high point of most people's academic careers, and now it's more expected that kids will go to some sort of college. The college graduation has taken away a lot of the importance of the high school one.

I was trying to make really clear that I think the majority of teenagers and their parents are excellent*. Really, I do. Very few people make any trouble at all. It's just the small percentage of people who don't care ruin it for the rest.

The rotten apples basically insist that you have punitive policies because you can't depend on them to act right unless something bad will happen to them if you don't.

The school basically has to decide if they are going let everything go or try to do something to make people act right.

Most schools have elected not to follow through with anything. I admire this school for trying to have nice graduations for all the kids and parents who want to mark the occasion with a sense of politeness and decorum, a group I honestly believe probably make up 98% or more of the total group.

I don't think it's the perfect system for many of the reasons you all have mentioned, but I think it could be one important step.

I agree that graduations aren't special anymore, and I might go along with the "it's because so many people go to college" idea except that you see the same behavior at even college graduations. Some people have come to think it's cute to act this way, and they expect to get away with it.

*But I will note that even some of the excellent kids manipulate or try to manipulate their parents. You really don't think this is true?