Buying the house back from LCAP
 

Here at Gamma Omicron,(Michigan State) LCAP has owned our house since 1993. We are making some great steps in a positive direction and feel that LCAP is just holding us back.

This saturday I have a meeting with the Alumni board and this will be one of the biggest issues on our agenda.

I was wondering if any chapter out there has bought their house back, and if they did, I would like to know some pointers. This seems like a big hill to climb, but it for sure needs to be done.

Matthew Moose
High Rho
ro 2140

Umm...

I'll try to put this the nicest way possible; get ready to grab your ankles.

I PM'd you Moose.

LCAP is like any institution when it comes to property.

Find out what the payoff is and go from their. If you need to get a loan, also have that information for pay off.

LCAP is a lease holder of trust, not a captive of property.

If they fight it, then find out why. Find out who is fighting it and why.

Ducks in a row. LXA is not in the business of owning property but as I said, it is supposed to be in trust for the Chapter.

Please let us know what the status is!:)

Respectfully disagree with you on every single point you brought up Tom.

And why?

Each situation is going to be different isn't it?

Well, no Tom, each situation is not that different.

I am curious, has LCAP ever sold back a piece of property?

First of all, it was made very clear to me and my brothers on several different occassions that LCAP is a business, and although LCAP does have Lambda Chi Alpha in it's name, that it is in no way associated with the fraternity.

With that in mind, LCAP needs to make money. There are salaries and expenses to be paid.

If the house that Moose mentioned is profitable, or will be in the future, why would LCAP sell it?

Now LCAP claims to not be associated with LXA, that brotherhood isn't brought into it, yadda yadda yadda. But amazingly, LCAP is directly tied in with operations at HQ when it feels it is convenient. HQ can have a much tighter grip over a chapter if LCAP owns the residence.

See, LCAP will ALWAYS do what is best for LCAP, not the chapter. I can't really blame them for that either. On paper, it is a good theory. In reality, it doesn't work. Sure, a self-sustaining organization to provide housing accomodations for LXA chapters sounds great. But it is not the reality.

Pretty soon, you have maintenance costs. A chapter goes under. Taxes go up. A new staff member is added. Travel is more expensive. Some people don't pay rent. There is a legal dispute with attorney fees. Heating costs skyrocket. They can't fill all the rooms. There was an accient at a property and insurance goes up. I can go on and on. What happens is LCAP, which ideally started out as non-profit, etc., soon has to make up costs. So now the focus becomes less on helping a chapter and more on becoming viable. Staff members don't work for free, and I'm sure HQ doesn't have money to burn.

I don't blame LCAP or the staff. The staff members have families and have to put clothes on their kids backs.

I blame the system itself. What SHOULD have happened was to have a property management company come in to run the property. Leave the LXA part out of the whole equation.

Now, what is the motivation for LCAP selling back Moose's house? If it is profitable, why sell? If it is not, will LCAP take the loss? Nope.

Now, with the economic part out of the picture, LCAP selling the house would give them less of an influence on a chapter. In many instances, a house can make or break a chapter. LCAP and HQ can now put restrictions, quotas, rules, regulations, goals and other factors to directly tell a chapter how it should be run. The chapter loses any and all independence once the house is run by LCAP.

I'm not saying LCAP is a bad idea, just that it needs to be re-evaluated and reformed.

I am not sure, but LCAP owned the Arkansas Un. house and rented it until the Zeta could be re established. I would hope there is someone on site who could confirm if the Zeta got the house back under their control.

The Un. Mo. house was taken over and finally sold. The Zeta at the moment is renting the SX house until they return to campus. Then, who knows?

I do not know for sure if LCAP is a major money making group, but caretakers of property until the time that the Zeta can take over control

At one time, Zeta Houses were signed over to IHQ in case something happened to said Zeta. That has since long gone by the wayside yeras back. IHQ is not in the overall business of owning property, but as I said a care taker position

See Tom, I just don't agree with you on the "caretaker" aspect.

They may have started out with that intention, but as you can see through the examples that you provided, it has evolved.

I would love to tell you everything going on with Gamma Zeta, but it is still a few more months until I file with the court.

Shocker! You don't agree, well that was enough to change my views. Seriousy Gamma, you're in law school you should be able to come up with a better argument than that. LCAP screwed you, we heard that story already but there were too many details left our for me to really agree with your story. I'm not sure if LCAP would sell a property back, but I have to assume that like any other property owner there is a price.

Em, I am disagreeing with the "caretaker" part of Tom's argument.

From my experiences, the way LCAP is setup, and from what was posted on here, I do not believe LCAP is in the "caretaker" role anymore.

I am saying that they have evolved. LCAP probably started out as "caretaker", but soon evolved into an organization that needed to maintain fiscal viability, which in turn made the "caretaker" role obsolete.

In my previous post, I pointed out that the financial aspect of LCAP forced it to leave it's caretaker role behind.

Moose's chapter really can't talk to LCAP as if they are in a caretaker role and simply want to run their house again.

EM, I would love to talk to you over the phone soon about the legal web that is now Gamma Zeta, illegally operating corporations, the actual title of GZ and so on. You would probably find it interesting.

PM me if you want to talk. I would be more than willing to fill you in on everything, but with pending legal action, it wouldn't be appropriate on this board.

I suggest that someone contact IHQ and find out the true facts first.

GammaZeta I do know the true facts about how your house was turned over to IHQ and the Chapter was closed but I will not divulge where I got them from. It is in print in minutes for the GHZ!

If you take umbridge to my "Caretaker" view, I would be in hopes that someone on site can fill us in!

Moose, have the situation checked out by your Zeta and let us know if you can!:)

No Tom that is incorrect.

The chapter house of Gamma Zeta is still in possession of LCAP, not HQ. Check it out at www.hampshiredeeds.com.

Also, the chapter was NOT closed. There was no disciplinary action taken, there was nothing from HQ, we never had our charter pulled. What happened was that due to several factors in regards to the chapter house (which I've already talked about in length), everyone but 2 brothers decided to move out of it.

The rent was astronomical, the conditions horrible, lack of assistance from the landlord, thefts and stolen property and so on. That is why we moved out.

We could have continued to operate as a fraternity if we wanted to without the house, or rented another house. But it was determined by the chapter that we would cease operation.

Maybe I can clarify the "caretaker" aspect as I view it. I don't view it as being a caretaker of the property for the CHAPTER (the current LXA's at the university) and the chapter's interests, but as a caretaker for the property representing the FRATERNAL and LCAP interests.

I think that the caretaker role that is currently portrayed is one of looking 10 and 20 years down the road and not of the current chapter. I'm not saying its bad or good. We've closed down a lot of smaller chapters. Why? We are in a rebuilding phase. The smaller chapters are sacrificed in hopes of focusing on the larger.

So, it is possible that LCAP may not have the interests of the chapter at heart if it conflicts with the general fraternity.

And Tom, I think you may be confused, the GHZ officially closed the chapter after we moved out and disbanded.

That was just an over view as LCAP is part of IHQ.

Since no one has emailed IHQ, I did and am going to wait to see what I hear back. If not, I will ask another person at IHQ.

Maybe this will settle the discussion.

Well Tom, I think you will get the answer that puts HQ and LCAP in the best light, even though it may not be the correct or true answer.

Sure, LCAP will say they are the caretaker for the chapter, and so on. But car salesmen always say they only want what is best for you. Ever buy life insurance? Do you really think the insurance salesmen has YOUR interest in mind?

Plain and simple. If there is a decision that has to be made by LCAP that will either benefit the chapter, or benefit HQ, but not both, who do you think LCAP is going to go with?

Faith...

Trust . . . but Verify

Faith. It is an interesting concept.

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

So, where does your faith lie? In your brothers? In your chapter? In your alumni? In LXA's teaching? In HQ? In all of them?

Imagine this. Your chapter has had a bad year recruiting last year. You drop down to about 12 or 13 members. Luckily you have had a better semester and have retained 10 promising associates that have not been initiated. One day you get a call from HQ:

"Brandon, we are sorry to inform you that we will be closing your chapter due to our new initiative of closing smaller chapters of under 20 men. Although your chapter will be closed, we will be better able to serve other larger chapters. You will be mailed the appropriate paperwork for becoming alumni of LXA. Thank you for having faith in us."

How is your faith now?

There is a problem with misplaced faith.

I was raised Catholic. I went to 13 years of Catholic school. My parents, relatives, friends are all Catholic.

Over the last 5-6 years here in Massachusetts, and other places across this country, it has been found that dozens, if not hundreds of priests sexually molested children. One priest who was convicted of molesting dozens of children lives just a 1/2 mile from me.

Since those scandals erupted, I have refused to give a dime to the Catholic Church if I suspected that it would be used to defend or help with any insurance policy to defend any priests accused of molestation. Instead I have given my donations (very small) to charities.

Am I still a Catholic? Absolutely. I still consider myself a Catholic everyday. But where is my faith? To whom do I have faith in?

I've learned that my faith isn't in the PEOPLE that run the Church, it is in the TEACHINGS of the Church.

Do I have faith in LXA? Absolutely. I have faith that it brings people together for a good common purpose. I have faith that it has good teachings, to abide by your word, work hard, do right.

Do I have faith in the people who run LXA? To a point I do. But our history is too tainted to have faith in an organization that needs to make a profit. Our own founder Warren Cole was kicked out of the fraternity he founded because of issues with money. A few years ago we were lucky to make it past one of the worse run periods of our fraternities history. We're lucky to even HAVE a fraternity from a few years ago.

Do I have faith in LXA? Yes. Do I have faith that they will do what is best for every member, or individual chapter instead of what is best purely for HQ? Nope.

John, exactly. You actually posted that while I was typing my previous message.

Man, you could have saved me a boat load of time!!!

Trust, but verify.

I guess to bring it back to the original question Moose proposed, you should assume that LCAP will be fair, but that doesn't mean you don't do your homework.

As I said, I emailed Brother Klimek and got a very quick emailo back from him with answeres to my caretaker question.

I will not place it on site, but from his explanation, I can and do see a better picture of LCAP!

It is a Non Profit Organization within LXA.

Many times and having been there, House Corporations cannot handle the Housing problems and ask LCAP to take them over and operate them as opposed to a local manager who does not have the where with all to run a Fraternity House and understand what it takes.

The situation at UnMass is something that has been discussed several times and I will not go into that either. Oh, the only thing I will mention that was passed on to me was a pipe in the fire supresent system that broke and had to be fixed ASAP or the house would have been closed by the local Fire Department. The renters would have been forced to leave, rental money would have to be repayed and then condemd and lost to LCAP!

In the caretaker form that I asked about, no, there isn't unless all moneys are paid back to LCAP for monies spent for updates and refinancing. This is nothing more than proper, it is not a give me Non Profit part of LXA!

If anyone wishes to check the LCAP site and the function, it is on lambdachi.org for all to read.

LCAP is more than willing to return the property if and only if the Zeta has the where with all to handle the situation!

That is the key isn't it?

That is just the thing Tom, which I am curious as to what happens with Moose's chapter.

LCAP making the determination of if a chapter can handle the situation.

As Moose said in his original post "We are making some great steps in a positive direction and feel that LCAP is just holding us back. "

Seems kind of fishy to me. A semi-stable chapter could more than easily obtain a mortgage on the property they wish to buy and repay LCAP the money. I don't think that is the problem.

But what is "handle the situation"? That's where things get sticky.

I can understand concern from LCAP that they don't want to sell it and have to come back 5 or 10 years from now. I think that is why they will not transfer back the property.

So if a chapter has 50 guys and is doing well, why wouldn't LCAP sell back the property?

I think it is a catch 22. Sure, LCAP will sell back the property but only if the chapter can guarantee stability for the next 5, 10 or 15 years.

So what chapter can assure they will be able to handle a house in 10 years from now? Even the absolute best chapters can't do that.

That is where I believe conflicting interests occur. LCAP wants long-term viability; a chapter cannot provide assurance for long-term viability.

Has anyone ever see the movie "I, Robot"? (or book)

Humans create robots to serve and protect them. Robots evolve, and it is found out that robots want to control and enslave because they feel humans are self-destructive. So the best way to prevent humans from hurting themselves is to control them.

Just like LCAP. LCAP was created to serve the chapters. LCAP evolved. It was soon found out that no chapter could successfully be stable enough to justify LCAP selling back the property. LCAP will therefore always keep the property because a chapter will always self-destruct.

Oh and Tom, I am NOT talking about Umass. I am talking on general terms.

My post was a joke...

Sarcasm is often lost in print.

It was a joke - not sarcasm.

I wouldn't have posted something serious here, because no matter
what I put, you would do your best to contradict me, make me feel
stupid for posting, and repeat your initial thoughts two or three more
times.

I just cut out all that and posted something that had little to nothing
to do with the discussion at hand...and it was 2am...

I'm sorry, next time I will simply agree with everything you say so you can feel better about yourself. Will that help raise your self-esteem?

Steady on Brother Brandon, not a problem!:D

I just threw UMass in the mix since Brother Klimek did to show what can happen and needs to be handled at a moments notice.

There is much more than each of us may have a handle on and with some one who is in the know and can get things taken care of is a positive.

As Joe said, many local realators/management have no clue when it comes to GLO houses.

If a Chapter such as Mooses can handle it with a proper H C, IHQ will return the property to them if they so desire and have the availability to run and keep it properly.

But many times the HC which are Alumni cannot and do not have the where withall to do it as I am sure you should be aware of. Could the Alumni HC of Gamma Zeta be able to handle this situation?

Remember, many of us are volunteers and only have so much time to get things done before we get tired and just say screw it and step away!

So ergo, LCAP has stepped into the breach and handle it period. Having Realistate experience is not the total issue.

It is a non profit arm of LXA and not in the business to make money, but to keep houses in place that can be used later while it is rented out if there is a chance of rechartering.

This argument is getting us no where if you will not or do not agree to the findings.

No, before you say it, I do not kiss anyones rears and do ask questions and I do get aqnswers and then try to report them as best as I can!:)

Well Tom, I don't see any reason wy a property management company can't handle the basics. There is no difference between a GLO house or a house the hockey team rents out. Maintain the house, collect rents, make sure everything runs smoothly. In fact, I think taking the fraternity aspect out of the equation would help immensely.

That is the way it is, period!

If this goes on much longer without something of importance, I will lock it!

You do not help yourself or your ex Zeta.

Give or ask positive questions either from this site or IHQ!

No matter what, you will not agree and that is your problem, not all of us on site.


Take a hint from one of the Brothers on site who know you and try to work with you!

Tom, I'm just trying to find out what the difference is between a GLO house and any other house?

I've personally witnessed several fraternity houses that were very successfully managed by non-greek management companies.

I wasn't aware that a fraternity paying rent was so totally different than a non-greek paying rent. Or that a fraternity house required special pipes, doors, drywall and other maintenance materials than a normal house.

EDIT:

Tom, I think this is really a discussion on what LCAP's role is in REALITY. Moose had said in his original post that LCAP was making things difficult for his chapter to regain independence.

This isn't a question LCAP can answer. That is like trusting what a used car salesmen says. Of course LCAP is going to answer any question you ask them in a positive light, if you ask them to justify their existence, what would you expect them to say? Tom, you out of anyone should know better. Remember what happened a few years ago? Remember the problems HQ had? If you asked HQ a question 5 or 6 years ago, do you think they would reply "Yeah, we are in pretty deep $*&% and may lose everything. We have no plan, no goal. We are losing money." Of course not!

I can tell you what LCAP's goal is, that's a no brainer. I think this should be a discussion on the actual impact and implementation of LCAP and HQ policy and procedures.