Hip Hop: Poison or Art?
 

A product of New York's early hip hop days, my first impulse was to be offended by CNN's coverage of hip hop, since they represent a population that did not take us seriously (in the beginning), with assertions that hip hop would not last. However, if I had to be honest, I'd say that the rapping aspect certainly isn't what it used to be. In fact, I find myself purposely avoiding most of the frequently-played rap songs on the radio. My feelings have to do with being called out of my name, constant references to sex, alcohol, and other spirtually-conflictive messages.....BUT....be that as it may, I am not sure I'd call hip hop "POISON". While I personally do not agree with a lot of the lyrics, I won't condemn all of rap music or hip hop's culture.

Furthermore, there's the fact that the older I become, the more I embrace other genres, such as Jazz, Classical, Gospel, NeoSoul, and Old School R&B. So it could be that I'm a bit outdated and am not in a '"fair position" to judge.......

What are your feelings. Is Hip Hop POISON or ART?

My 11 cents
 

:confused: I couldn't help but notice that a such a thought prokoking thread as this was sittin' by, collectin' a lil' dust!

*pops open a cold Heineken...prepares to write*

Although I'm not sure where to began, I can remember movin' my head to the sounds of The Rappin' Duke, or being up in Foot Locker trying to convince momz to get me a pair of shell-top Addidas b/c of some Run DMC lyrics..and I told her, "black and white, or white with black stripes"...I had to have a pair!! DAMMIT! (well, I didn't say dammit...LOL...but you get my point)

Just the other day, I was listening to some old M.C. Shy D, "I gott be tough"...and the brotha said, "I'm cold gettin' paid...I gotta credit card". LOL!
It's sad, but kinda funny now when I look back at it. Back then, to those yourng artist, those were major accomplishments...you know, being a able to sample from a life that the majority of Americans have had (and didn't want to share) for many years.

For those artist, being able to surround themselves with some of the new "things" that money, and what a newfound "entertainer" status could afford them...and not having a mentor to guide them...well, they were bound to lose focus, and move from rappin' about social issues, encouraging those in challenging situations to make better lives for themselves, or just the simple things like, "A teenage love"....

All b/c they didn't have a base by which to define their identity...and we as Blacks are still in search of who we are today!! Modern day rap/hip-hop (if wish to call it that), is a direct reflection of our state of being...how some of us see ourselves.

This new wave of music has become an "eyebrow raiser"...or...*clears throat*....an "item of interest" in the white community, only b/c a large number of their children purchase it, and listen to it - religiously. It's almost like the epidemic of drugs or AIDs...these two "poisons" only became a problem once they landed on the front porches and doorsteps of surbania!

So, let's delete white America and CNN from the equation....

Is this music a direct reflection of how we see ourselves...?

Music that perpuates the stereotypes of: 1) the thuggish, intellectually inept black male who is supposedly defined by the number of gold teeth in his mouth, his car/rims and chains, or the number of baby mammas he may have 2) the promiscuous young black woman (many of whom are mothers), who think that her image is supposedly defined by size (and elasticity) of her ass...or how much their vagina they can get to hang out of their shorts or dresses.

I know that as a people, we are moved by the beat of the drum...but if you listen to the lyrics, how can we still wiggle and shake when our mothers, daughters, and sisters are being called bitches, hoes...names that so disrespectful and degrading. Names that they almost reduce their existence to a level total insignificance.

There was a time when white slave owners would treat our women in this same manner...name calling...raping them....beating them...even murder. But then, we had no choice but to sit by silently...now, we do it voluntarily....

We have no base by which to define our identity...and we're still blindly in search of who we are today b/c we do not know our history!!

We still wiggle and shake when our young men, some whom can't even spell their names...add, subtract or multiply...rap about a life of drugs...thuggin'...ballin'...smokin'...disrepectfu lly asking the ladies..."can I hit it?"...all with not even an ounce of sense in their heads. We sit by silently as they glorify this buffoonery...

Again...

We have no base by which to define our identity...and we're still blindly in search of who we are today b/c we do not know our history!!

And it's sad to say, but most of us embrace this foolishnes as our "new" black image, and we seem to care less that this is the measuring rod by which America and the rest of the world seems to want to judge us. Yet, we get upset, and we call it "keepin' it real"!!

- What's real if you don't know that Clarence Thomas is a fake...and there once was a true black man named Justice Thurgood Marshall?

- What's real if you believe that a life of selling dope, or playing basketball or football is the only way to make it, and you don't know about that there once was a black physician by the name of Charles Drew...or world-renowned black educator by the name of Dr. W.E.B. Dubois?

- What's real when we as Colored folk do not see about each other the way we used to...we have ceased to show love and respect for one another - as if there is another race of people who are so concerned for our well-being? LOL!

We need to wake up, and realize that we need to GO BACK to the days when we were keepin' it...and we all could probably spell it!

Personally, I think that some forms of rap and hip-hop are a new poison that has entered our veins...and a good majority of us have yet to awaken...still unaware...perhaps unconcerned...

^^^Very well said!
I must say that I for one don't find rap or hip hop poison but a form of art, to be interpreted as one sees fit! It's about your own perception of what good music is. I hate that society uses these art forms as a way to judge a race of people, maybe because it's more mainstream, making more money then 20 years ago. I remember getting flack by older family members because I of how much I liked the song where Uncle Luke and his boys talked about their sexual exploits or how Naughty by Nature explained what OPP was..I mean, though the sounds have changed..a lot of the messages in the songs are similar if not the same..

Good question
 

In reading this post it made me re-read an interview done with Wynton Marsalis in the Sunday Inquirer regarding his newest work From the Plantation to the Penitentiary. Although he has no love for Hip-hop, there is a part of the interview that actually makes sense in today's music world.

an excerpt:

"Q: The title song on From the Plantation to the Penitentiary paints a grim picture. "From the yassuh boss to the ghetto minstrelsy... from the stock in slaves, to the booming prison trade." Do you think that American culture - and black culture - is at a crisis point?

A: Yes. But if you asked me that in 1985, when we recorded Black Codes (From the Underground), I would have said yeah then, too.
I can remember being on the bandstand with my brother [Branford] when I was 15 and he was 16, playing some song like "Shake Your Booty," or "Play That Funky Music." And I said to him, "This is the dumbest [stuff] ever. I don't think it can get any stupider than this!"
He looked at me, and deadpanned: "It can, and it will." He was like: "This [stuff] is nothing. You only think this is dumb. Just wait." I'll never forget how he told me that. Ha!
If you asked anybody who was black in the 1970s that was listening to Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, if there was going to be a type of music coming along that calls people n*****s - we would never have believed it. No way. After the Civil Rights movement? C'mon! So what he said was truly prophetic. We saw it happen.

Q: Why do you think it happened?

A: I think there are a myriad of reasons. First, there's a belief in the generation gap. Second is the exploitation of kids. When you're exploiting people, and exploiting their sexuality, you have to find new ways to continue to do that...
The third thing is the traditional American relationship with the minstrel show. Black people acting the fool. Always, there's some money to be made off of that. It's comfortable to the national psyche. And also black people's enjoyment of that - for taking what is serious and reducing it to entertainment, which is the same thing that happened with religious music. And it starts with the whole belief in youth music, and the separation of the 14-year-old from their parents."

I grew up listening to Stevie and Marvin and can understand what he meant by this statement. Even though it is reflective of today's culture to say these things rap music nowadays seems to have no point/purpose. Artists want to get paid and this mess that is on the radio is what sells nowadays. Big labels don't want to promote the positive rap (a la De La, Common, etc). They don't care. Now that they have finally seen the the #'s and the influence that rap has, it's about making as much out of it as possible. So the alternative rap artists remain somewhat 'underground' if you will.

In watching the Independent Lens show a few weeks ago there was a group of men outside the Hip Hop Summit in NY freestyling. One of them did 18 bars and it wasn't about killing, booty shaking or any of what is out there. It was good but even he knew that is not what folks want to hear and what sells.

There are still small pockets of resistance (as I call them) and I do try to listen to their music more (if it's good). But I do listen to Jazz, classical and other genres of music more nowadays. I am getting older so my tastes are changing and that is a good thing because it means I am growing within myself. But I look at lot of today's music as disposable-it won't last for the long haul.

I wouldn't call all of it poison just as i wouldn't call it all art either. Most of it is nonsense and I just choose not to waste my money or time on it.

Long Live the Kane!

Acedawg, you hit it on the nail. I enjoyed reading that post.

Art.

Hip Hop is ART!!
All of this disecting going on about the culture and its music is just people with too much time on their hands.
People make conscious decisions to do the things that they do. To blame any genre of music for someone's illegal activities is just using it as a scape goat. If someone commits a crime they were more than likely going to do it regardless of any lyrics they heard in a song.
Just my thoughts. I am from the hip hop generation and I love it.:) :)
"Let's Take It Back To The Old School, Let's Take It To Union Square...."

I hear ya girl!!! :D

Folks also forget that hip hop's origins weren't as socially progressive and intense as people try to make it. The Sugar Hill Gang? Not even rappers and their rhymes were fluff. Hip hop was a call and response party thing--DJs were hip hop and then "emcees" picked up microphones and moved the crowd. All of this happened before Afrika Bambata called it "hip hop" and Kurtis Blow rhymed about the ghetto.

Mysogyny and negative images in hip hop began in the 80s. There weren't the same type of video girls and raunchy lyrics but when you allow a little bit, a lot is soon to follow. I still remember how Shaba Ranks' "Trailer Load of Girls'" video with KRS-One was cool back in the 90's. That was all the precursor for what we are seeing now.

This is a provocative thought, hip hop as modern minstrelsy. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

I think that hip hop could be art, but at this point it has become stagnant--this is particularly the case with mainstream stuff that we hear on the radio. Can art emerge from the static, I don't know?

Agreed.

The thing is, music talked about drugs, sex, and violence long before hip hop came along.

GREAT TOPIC!
 

I think at its inception and in its realest form is art . . . the ability to use words to explain, examine, express one's feelings about their environment over a beat is something that ONLY an artist could do. Hip Hop wasn't embraced by mainstream when it was preaching about teen pregancy, drug infestation, crime in our communities, unemployment, etc. But as soon as the music begins to demoralize and objectify women, it is embraced; as soon as the message is kill a n or N this or n that; as soon as the music lost its message that is when a PORTION of the art form turned into poison . . when we allowed mainstream America to pimp us for a few measly dollars that is when it became poisonous. . .do you think white america as a whole was listening to Tribe or Jungle Brothers or KRS-1 . . NO! But you can bet your butt they are thumping 50 cent, Cash Money, and any other artist that talks about killing, pimping, hoeing, stealing, and the list goes one. People like Naz and Common who speak truth and have not lost their souls to the might dollar are, in my opinion, true hip hop. The others are sell outs who are focused only on green and not concerned with the impact their words have on society and its views of our community. . . .

I totally agree with you. It is so easy to create a song that demoralizes the black community, but what happened to being pro-black and uplifting our people. Or better yet just having a good time. Like with songs Peter Piper-Run DMC and Eric B for President.

Right - because it doesn't take any real thought to say [w]itch this and [w]itch that. Or N this or N that, etc. etc. etc. It takes some thought and some intelligence to talk about something of substance and something that affects our community.

I think someone may have mentioned this, but there was a documentary on a couple of weeks ago about hip hop (I think it was on PBS) - very good expose on how far the genre has dropped. . . there were guys outside a record studio that were spitting verses about something conscious and then said that the record execs don't want to hear that because it doesn't sell. What baffles me is why someone would think to themselves, I am going to sacrafice a part of me for the green to spout ignorance, instead of doing my own thing cutting some cd's and promoting myself . . .I know that is easier said than done- but why sell yourself and your integrity . . .:confused:

Ok....so you believe only SOME types of Hip Hop are poison....? Is it safe to say that most of it is art?

I believe the same holds true for Old School music (Soul/R&B)......many of the songs from the 60s and 70s had "adult content" - however, it was delivered a little more carefully....or at least as a child, you didn't fully understand the message being conveyed. Earlier days in hip hop may have had the same messages in some of the songs....however, most of them were conveyed much more delicately....or you were so concerned about the party (or the story), you missed the fact that the song was about he and his girl.....

In my opinion, the tide turned during the NWA years for the West.....and the Luke years for the South. I welcome your comments.

This is the best quote I've seen in a long time. I think Marsalis is on-point here. And as I was reading, I thought about how dramatically different hip hop changed from the late 70s to the 80s; then the 80s to the 90s.....and during these first years of the New Millennium. I have every right to be offended - having participated as an "mcee" back in the day ..... when rhyming was "innocent" and the point was to get in a wise crack or a laugh at the expense of the one who dared to battle you. ... or to simply show of your quick-witted skills over a 'hard' beat...

Thanks for posting this interview...I'd like to see it in its entirety - would you please post the link to its source? :rolleyes:

Another Hip Hopper? :) Tell me: What's in your CD Cartridge right now?

You're absolutely right.... and New Yorkers, although appreciative of the Sugar Hill Gang, often clowned them because the SHG was from New Jersey... and those in the Bronx (NY) felt that the SHG was only able to put on vinyl what the pioneering Bronx and uptown rappers had already been doing for years.....

Be that as it may, in the end we were just happy to hear our art form on the radio station... No one was looking to be paid big money - the fame from being played was enough.

Good point, Chaos.

If so, who would be responsible? The rapper? Or the industry machine?

Wheeeeeeeeeew girl! :D

*Five Mics and a Thumbs Up For This One!!!*

LOL! :D Thanks MzDocta.

I agree, the messages were delivered more carefully. But then again, I'm all grown up now and don't always understand what the gangster rappers are referring to in their songs. Like somewhere in another thread, one of us didn't know what 'Ds' were in a song. My question is this: As far as the negativity in rap music today, is it the fault of the rappers, music industry, etc., or is it really a reflection of what is going on in the streets? The reason I ask this is because like I said, I don't understand some references, but these younger kids sure do, and just like Ms Docta Kay said, when we were young, we didn't understand. So, is that a reflection of how the younger generation is different/growing up too fast, etc., or are lyrics really that much worse? Or maybe a little bit of both?

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/e...t/16820808.htm

This will be there for a limited time (so the website says)

Sometimes I think it is a little of both..Back in the day when they were talking about 'killin' it was mainly killin on the mike and that was it. Your ego was crushed and you picked it up, went home and came up with a new rhyme to battle them with next week and regain your title or claim a new one. Today they mean it as in taking your life and meaning exactly that. Sometimes I wonder if the whole thing of what begat what is the million dollar question. There was always violence on the streets but no one ever talked about it the way rap did. Violence and Sex is all around the children today & in some instances there is nothing to balance it out so it is all one sided. Those that remember back in the day we had different genres (battle rap, conscious rap, fun rap and gangster rap) going on at the same time or at least overlapping. Today you don't have those choices as prevalent and popular as they were in the past and what sells is the violent, sexual rap.

It seems right when gangsta rap took off, all the older indie labels that had the other types of rap got bought out by the bigger labels (Big Beat, Sleeping Bag, Rawkus et.al) So there is the gap in the rap industry because all the big boys want to make $$$. In turn that's what the audience gravitates to. Since everybody and their momma has a record label nowadays it would be nice to see some alternate forms of rap emerge again.

But it all reminds me of a quote from the movie Brown Sugar; "Here at Millenium Records we keep it profitable, if you want to keep it real go to Rawkus" .

And that's the double truth Ruth!!

Uhmmm soror.... very thought-provoking.

I think for the most part, the older generations were always left in the dark about the street vernacular or the terminology of that day. I was born in 1971, so my teenage years were the 80s. We'd say stuff like, "Def", and "Fresh", and my moms would always ask: What does that mean?? :confused: But here's the thing.... you always had two areas of hip hop. You had the UNDERGROUND, that wasn't accepted, endorsed, or ever heard by the mainstream .... and obviously, the MAINSTREAM, that was played on the radio, and some times, managed to cross over. [Today, mainstream isn't defined by crossing over, because all cultures embrace hip hop - only being played on the radio makes it mainstream]. In those days, the FCC would go crazy if certain things were allowed over the airwaves. However, with the relaxing of "rules", and the censorship crusade led by Luke, songs we would've NEVER heard on the radio (back then) and was relegated solely to the Underground, made their way over to the mainstream.....

On the other hand, you tackled another interested point that I had to seriously ponder. ..if you're not a product of the streets, you may not always have a clue about what's going on... I don't know if that's ALWAYS the case... I was raised in suburbia....however, we always knew and understood what was going on in the music of our day. Maybe that's because back in our day, there weren't REAL gang members in the game... who had their own code and vernacular. Now don't get it confused with Gangsta Rap - not all who are involved in gangsta rap are REALLY in gangs.......Again...when I speak of back in the day, I'm speaking about New York.....

I would really like to know what others think...

I actually have Mary J. in my car at the moment, but I bought LL Cool J for the song with J.Lo because of the use of the sample from "Looking for the Perfect Beat". So when I need a little pick me up I play that track.
When I have a message on my phone the song it plays is "Scorpio"-Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five. I can I keep my "Hip-Hopper" pass?;)

Thank you so much for posting...I circulated the link to everyone I know! ;)

I was a little shaky when you said J.Lo....but when you mentioned LL....and went all the way back to Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, I had to give you the All Time Platinum Pass..... :D

*Handing the Pass to the Soror on my left*

So what did you all decide?

<---rockin my Nefertiti earrings and hair stacks. Feeling "funky fresh, dressed to impress, ready to party...."

Go 'head girl... you went 1987/1988 on me with that one! LOL

Let's see...... I'm going to go 1985 on you: I'm rocking my braids, my Door-Knocker earrings and gold rope chains.... Lee Jeans with the Name Belt buckle that says, "Lady LaShawn".... hoody sweater, Gucci bag...and B-girl stance on you.... I'm about ready to pop-lock, then break into a windmill.......

Oh - one more thing...
 

I forgot...... I'm rocking my blue suede pumas, with my toothbrush in my back pocket, so I can stop,brush the suede, and keep 'em "FRESH". :D

I'm rockin my blue and black suede Pumas. Pumas are my favorite shoe. :D

Don't trip...I love ol school hip hop fashion.

You won't catch me rocking ol school hair styles or jewelry, though. :D

If I can find my brothers' African medallions boxed up at the crib, I'm gonna start rockin those again. That's sure to confuse some people.

That's why I gave the year brackets.... in NY, we didn't start rocking the black medallions until the end of 86 - 89.... that's when Tribe Called Quest, The Jungle Brothers, De La Soul (and the rest of the Native Tongue), ruled our airwaves along with Public Enemy....they made hip hop more self-aware.

Dag..... all this talk is making me nostalgic. We had FUN back then. These kids don't know what fun is. But then again....I'm sure our elders will tell us the same thing....:cool:

I think that there is culpability on both sides. Of course, industry is primarily concerned with what will sell; it will appeal to the lowest common denominator. On the other hand, there have to be artists that embody or are willing to espouse ideas that are palatable to the LCD--and willing to be exploited--for this type of situation to persist. And as other have said, there is always going to be someone that will sacrifice their artistic integrity and vision for money. So industry and artists are responsible for the stagnation that we see in mainstream rap--I won't call it hip hop.

There are artists out there that continue to create real, thought-provoking music with lyrics and beats that will stand the test of time, as opposed to those songs that are here today, gone tomorrow (To that list, I would add someone like Del). But as with other genres of art, it is rare that those people are widely appreciated in their time.

I guess the other question is how is "art" being defined?

Whew. Thought I was going to have to break out with the wop or the running man.:D

Hold up don't forget the ponytail on the side of your head with the baby hair all slicked down to your face. Or the jordache jeans with the yellow or light blue stitching with the shirt to match the stitching. And don't forget the bubblegum reeboks and the two pairs of thick socks that were color coordinated to your outfit.:D :D :D

Ok..hold up. You're going back to the early 80s again, except we didn't do the thick socks. LOL

You are too funny! @ baby hair slicked down

You're right to make the distinction between rap and hip hop....I'd describe rap as the audio portion (lyrics...djing...music) of the entire hip hop culture. Although many of us use the two terms interchangably.

As for the definition of art, I'd use Webster's definition: "...the conscious use of skill and creative imagination; or an aesthetic object produced as an artistic effort".