Michigan's Prop 2 to ban affirmative action
 

It's the hottest issue going on in Michigan and is apparently being watched carefully in other parts of the country. Apparently the same group who got this passed in California is trying to get it passed here. There were legal controversies over how they got it on the ballot. It's titled The Civil Rights Initiative, but bans affirmative action.

Opponents say it is a step backward for Civil Rights, will hurt programs like free mammograms and ovarian cancer screenings because they are for women only and for free prostate cancer screenings because they are only for men.

Proponents say it is a step forward because it will eliminate reverse discrimination and focus only on race, not women.

The proponents are very misleading in their ads, in my opinion, but I think they are getting the support of people who don't realize the full impact.

While I think it would be great if we were at a point where affirmative action was no longer necessary, I don't think we're there.. in fact, I think we're far from it.

Some links (pro and con) for reference:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...8/1068/OPINION

http://www.grandhaventribune.com/pai...1600508865.bsp

http://www.cew.umich.edu/PDFs/MCRIecon6-25.pdf

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_arti...?storyid=63805

http://thesouthend.typepad.com/tsene...rallies_a.html

Discuss.. please keep it civil.

Amazing how our duly elected morons seem to legislate our morality.

It usually comes with a price doesn't!

It just doesn't seem to matter to us as citizens anymore.

Now trial segregated class rooms by gender in Missouri.

Can you cite a few instances where affirmative action has had a positive effect?

In the areas I'm familiar with, affirmative action in the schools, busing for integration, etc. has been abandoned as a failure.

Do you favor affirmative action in the NBA, requiring each team to take a token number of white guys who can't jump and a number of short guys of any race?

Or requiring each NHL team to take a few southern boys who can't skate?

Were any of you who say that Affirmative Action has had NO positive effect alive prior to the sixties or seventies?

Affirmative Action sure had it's place in history.

Anyone who forgets the way this country was before the civil rights initiatives of the 60's couldn't have been alive. I WAS and I remember. I believe PBS is re-airing Eyes on the Prize. It's one of the most worthy programs ever shown on television, and I hope millions of new viewers see it each time it airs.

But to say that mammograms and prostate screenings would be eliminated is a use of ridiculous scare tactics. It might make some feel that you shouldn't have to tell lies to prevent the passage/rollback of a worthy law.

In 40 years we've come too far, and changed too much, to think that we still need the full blown mechanisms of Affirmative Action, though. Those are my feelings.

Regardless of people's feelings on this, I get a bit bothered with the "if you weren't here, you don't understand" argument. Just because people lived through a certain time period doesn't mean they have a greater understanding of a topic than someone born more recently. It sounds more like a cop-out to limit debate. Just a pet peeve of mine.

I hadn't heard anything about this, although I haven't had as much time to check the news lately. Is it definite that it will be on the ballot, even with the legal challenges? It will certainly be something to watch for on election day.

I don't think they are scare tactics. If this proposal is passed, it will pretty much do away with things like Title IX. I'm wondering how this would affect Greek Life.

And Affirmative Action had its place in history. Yes. But I think it's quite ridiculous when a person who is considered just a SMIDGEN of minority gets into a college like Universtiy of Michigan, when a caucasian person who had a better GPA, more activies in high school, and better standardized test scores misses his chance because a certain quota needs to be filled.

Some stats to show that we aren't there yet.. from a CNN article in December 2004:

On average, women make 78 percent of men's wages, according to a 2003 study by the U.S. Department of Labor. This is, however, a marked improvement over 25 years ago -- in 1979, women made 62 percent of what men earned

At the current rate of change, working women will not achieve equal pay until after the year 2050. That's almost 100 years after President Kennedy signed the Equal Pay Act into law, prohibiting discrimination based on sex resulting in unequal pay for equal work.

The pay gap differs by race, with the earnings of white women being just 78 percent of those of white men; black women making 91 percent as much as their male counterparts; and Hispanic women earning 88 percent of what Hispanic men earn. The Rutgers School of Management Relations says this is primarily because white men still earn the most among all groups of workers.

Females doctors only earn 58 percent of their male counterparts' salaries. Even in predominantly female fields like nursing and teaching, women still earn less than men: female nurses earn 91 percent and female teachers earn 87 percent of what their male counterparts do.

The link: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Careers/1...ref=sitesearch

I believe this article shows that it has had a positive affect. I'm not convinced that without affirmative action in place, more people wouldn't be discriminated against based on race and/or gender. Just as I don't think the citizens of the US would elect a female or minority President, I don't think we're ready to ditch affirmative action.

And yes, the legal challenges are done and it is on the ballot billed as a Civil Rights Initiative, which most people I've talked to agree is a deceiving title for this proposal.

I believe the outcome will be determined by two factors:
1) Who gets out to vote
2) Whether the people who get out to vote actually understand what the proposal means

I have also heard that the stats on women's salaries are not 100% accurate because of the number of hours women work, the type of field they go into (e.g. in medicine, women are less likely to go into higher paying specializations)

Here's an article that examines the wage gap:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12760790/

ETA: And we are also less likely to negotiate our salary than our male counterparts.

Your opinion is noted, however sometimes experience really is the best teacher. Some things simply don't translate to the printed page.

Not always.

yeah, I kind of feel that way about something that happened in my life toward the end of the cold war...I can't really describe how I felt watching the Berlin wall being torn down, or when Gorbachev was arrested, I mean, I'm not saying that no one in the future could have a valid opinion, or even a more accurate, well-informed opinion than I could...but we watched it everyday in class, on the news, as it happened. I thought that there was going to be a coup here, I didn't feel threatened the same way this last time with Thailand.

The same people got it passed here a few years ago. I think it only affected higher ed admission but I can't really remember. I do know that this fall the news was going on about how minority admission has gone up since it passed.

Are you referring to Washington?

I read something a while back about how underrepresented minority enrollment at UC institutions has fallen dramatically.

My take
 

Minority admissions is horrendous at the University of Washington. Out of ~153 medical student admissions 2 are AfAm., 3 Hispanic and zero Native Americans--which is really piss poor for the state of Washington. I know that for a fact because I work here. More than 47% are of Asian decent with 3% Asian faculty--that is insane given the HUGE Asian population is Seattle alone.

Within 5-10 years without Affirmative Action, California, Texas and Washington have had the largest increases in health disparities in all people of color: increased health deaths usually caused by myocardial infarction, ischemic cerebrovascular disease and type 2 diabetic complications. Asian women are the most at risk for having stage 3 breast cancer compared to other women. African American women die due to stage 3 breast cancer and metastasis. And Native American, as well as Hawaiian Pacific Islander women have be systematically avoided in these stats.

Apparently, people of color who become medical doctors go back to their communities and perform acts of service within their communities.

Most African Americans at University of Washington are there because of atheletic scholarship. Certain Asian Americans, (Pacific Islanders are strongly hurt without support), either pool their money to send their children or have enough money to send. Latinos are coming from other states/countries. And now some Eastern European students are beginning to feel the pinch.

We should have had a weaning period than cold turkey... Folks are literally dying out there...

And you all the think I am full of isht if you want. I really don't care. I know what I do for a living.

while i'm not sure that massive gov't programs are the answer to everything, i think that once they've been established, to take them away so abruptly is just foolish

I don't think affirmative action within the school system should go cold turkey, but I just don't think it's fair for someone who really deserves to get into a school not get in because a minority took their place. I still think the little box that says "Check ethnicity" or whatever should be taken off and admission be strictly on test scores, activities, and GPA.

Do you think that a minority student deserved to get into college less than you did?

If the minority student is less qualified than me....then no......I absolutely don't think he or she deserves it.

In Canada, some programs ask you if you consider yourself an ethnic minority or if you are native, but you are never asked what race you are. Do you think it's better to be ambiguous like this?

I don't think there should be any ambiguity.......there shouldn't be anything like it period. Qualifications and performance should be the deciding factors.

Mac-

I am only responding to you, personally.

You KNOW that qualifications and performance will NEVER be the final deciding factors, EVER...

That is NOT how this "game" is played here in the United States.

I wish it was about equality, fairness and merit. But in life, it is not. It is about money, plain and simple. I all comes down to the money. If you have enough of it, you can get yourself into anywhere...

Withdrawal $ymptom$...
 

I wish it were that simple as someone taking someone else's place.

I think DSTChaos has discussed this in enough detail that it is not that simple. However, either you refuse to understand a Sociologist, Ph.D. or you hate examining the full-spectrum of the truth(s).

There are numerous factors that go into admissions. Some schools have "cut-off points" where they can take the "cream of the crop". Namely places like Harvard can afford to do something like that... If you "fit" into one of "their" categories, they will admit you over another student.

Do you KNOW how State Colleges and Universities are funded or endowed?

I can tell you many State Colleges and Universities are poorly-funded, losing endownments and the US governments is pulling funds everyday from them.

Your pissante school tuition barely pays for the lightbulb in the chittiest desk lamp.

Where does the money all go? Good question! And I can tell you it is NOT to the BCS... ;)

State Colleges and Universities do NOT have money to place over 100,000 kids in undergraduate college... There are not enough professors. There are not enough instructors, there are not enough administrators.

Kicking students out is not changing the number of kids who want college degrees.

The only thing that is looking like it works is Computer-based learning. But it only works with serious students who are alternative 25 year olds+...

Hayle for every class I have taught, I'd rather make it an internet course anyway...

Most Universities sell-out. Period. If Bill Gates/Paul Allen decided to buy UW and make it his Microsoft biatch today--UW would do it...

Google can buy Stanford... Emory is bought and paid for by Coca-Cola...

Hayle, Citgo may buy University of Miami just to see if they can do it...

That is what your college education is about now...

No matter how "qualified" you are.

If you look at it from an anti-affirmative action POV, you COULD end up with a freshman engineering class made up mostly of Asian males.

I have a huge problem with affirmative action.
If we say that minorities should be given an extra hand because they had less opportunities (poor schools, parents didn't go to college, whatever), then what about white children who went to the same schools, same background? The majority of children in poverty are white children and it seems that these are the kids that are getting left behind the most.
I'm native american. Of course I'm going to check the NA/I box (if it asks, should I deny it?), but did I need help getting into college? No. Both of my parents went to college, there also was enough money for me to attend college, but just because I am NA I recieved dozens of offers for grants/loans/scholarships that my white bf (who really needed the money) didn't receive.
Sure minorities might need extra help (due to condition, not race), but are we going about this the best way? Are we helping those minorities who need help the most? I think of America as more of a class based society, than race based. (But would people want to check lower class, middle or upper?)

I can agree with you in some instances. Connections can play a big role too. However, I definitely know of plenty guys my age from insanely wealthy families that haven't gotten into schools.......and the are very well known.

Define yourself first...
 

Based on your simple logic, you should have never checked the Native American box...

Nobody's faulting you if you don't want to be an ethnic group. It is fine with us. You can be proud to choose nothing. But don't be an ethnic group on paper...

Low-income does play a role in the current University programs in States that eliminated Affirmative Action...

So your question is a moot point...

I just mentored an entering freshman who was caucasian, whose mother was a crack addict prostitute. And I had NADA problems helping this young lady out to achieve her goals...

You know your friends wanted to attend some SEC school just to be on the winning team... ;)

Man the PAC-10 SUCKS!!! And the what's up with the ACC?--wait don't answer that question, 'cuz I don't wanna know...

Hahaha.....you may actually be right.

The same thing that's always wrong with the ACC during football season -- waiting for basketball season. ;)

The SEC may be better than the ACC in bball, too.

If they couldn't pass up a white student without checking the ethnicity/race box, then no I"m sorry they don't. Same goes for rich white kids who are getting in on daddy's recommendation and money. If you don't have the grades and everything else to get into the institution, then you don't deserve it more than the white/whatever student who has worked their ass off all their life. Disclaimer: I am NOT saying that there are minority students who don't work their asses off. THEY are the deserving ones. I'm glad to be part of the group that says I got into my 1st choice school on my merits rather than getting those extra admissions points for being a minority or for how much money my family has.

I wish I could find Michigan's admissions points sheet. They posted somewhere before but I can't remember where. Just for being a minority, you get BIG points.

Whether or not people get into a certain college isn't the issue--it's how they do once they're there. You can brag about getting into your top school--but it's how you do once you're there that counts. If a minority student works hard and graduates within 4 years with a good GPA, then yes, he/she deserved that spot.

I believe the Grutter v. Bollinger lawsuit and subsequent decision led to the elimination of that admissions sheet at Michigan, even though the Supreme Court upheld its use. According to that sheet, however, you got the same amount of points for being the child of an alumnus and almost as many for being an athlete. Preferential treatment, whether it's based on race, class, or athletic prowess, has been here forever and is here to stay.

Munchkin, thats ridiculous. So you're telling me a minority who does well deserved to get the spot over a white kid who would have done just as well/better? Absurd.

I said that anyone who does well deserves to get into college.

I don't really care one way about affirmative action, I certainly didn't benefit from it. I just hate the assumption that any minority student in college got admitted to fill a quota. The person I quoted has stated this numerous times, and that sort of "prejudism" annoys the smack out me.

Hear, hear! Let's all look past the stereotypes if we can. A lot of people from all races, etc. are admitted to colleges and universities because they deserve to be there.

I think that those who don't fit that description are in the minority -- with no pun intended.

You guys can say what you want, but the fact is that minorities DO get in because of some sort of quotas, or some perceived need for minority students. Before anyone gets all upset, not all minorities, or even the majority, but it absolutely happens. So to say that "so long as you do well, its ok," completely ignores the fact that they chose a minority over white kid with equal or better abilities, simply because of their minority status. I think thats wrong.

And in years past students weren't admitted to schools or people didn't get jobs because they weren't white.

That's wrong, too.

Do you truly believe that would have changed without a legal nudge?

Affirmative Action has some flaws -- maybe a lot of them -- but it was necessary at one time and may still be.

As Clarence Thomas said, "You can't fix one 14th Amendment violation with another."

Quoting Mr. Justice Thomas is not much of an argument to me. I watched his confirmation hearings at some length and was amazed he was confirmed.