Flags of our Fathers
 

Morning all,

I found out that after spending a day in the archives with two visiting Marine generals, I am to be rewarded along with other members of the UofT veterans group, with a VIP (free booze and food) screening of the film "Flags of our Fathers".

I'll let you all know about it if and when I get back...

Congratulations, Rob.

I hope you'll enjoy the movie. I'm not a big movie person, but I think I'll see this one.

As a side note, it's always interesting to me that almost everyone believes that the flag raisers were all Marines. In fact, one of them was a Navy corpsman (medic).

Also, it has now been well documented that the famous prize winning picture of the event was not the actual first raising of the flag -- but was a restaging using a bigger flag. It was also captured on movie film, but that is almost never seen.

It wasn't a restaging.

The point of raising the flag in the first place was to show that Mt. Suribachi had fallen to the Americans. The first flag raised was only 4.5 feet by 2 feet, 4 inches, so it was too small to be seen by Marines landing on the beaches below:

http://www.iwojima.com/raising/lflagi.gif

The picture we've all seen of the five Marines and one Navy corpsman :

http://www.iwojima.com/raising/lflaga2.gif

(uncropped), shows a larger flag being raised so it can be seen from the beach. It was not staged. (This picture shows the smaller one being taken down while the second one was raised):

http://www.iwojima.com/raising/lflagk.gif

Joe Rosenthal did have marines pose for a shot a few minutes later -- he called this the "gung ho" shot:

http://www.iwojima.com/raising/l721flag.gif

Here is a picture of Rosenthal taking the posed "gung ho" shot:

http://www.iwojima.com/raising/lflagj.gif

A week or so after the pictures were taken, Rosenthal was asked by a reporter whether he posed the shot. He thought the reporter meant the "gung ho" shot and answered "Sure." Time Magazine's radio show took this and reported that "Rosenthal climbed Suribachi after the flag had already been planted. . . Like most photographers, Rosenthal could not resist reposing his characters in historic fashion." Thus, confusion was born. But Rosenthal, who received a Pulitzer Prize for the picture of the raising of the second flag, always maintained the picture was not staged, and the film to which you refer, which was made cotemporaneously with Rosenthals' picture, shows that the flag raising was not a restaging.

I'm looking forward to the movie.

I read the book this summer. I was interested because one of my uncles fought at Iwo Jima. He was only 18 or 19 years old.

Just a note: The famous picture wasn't actually a re-staging. It was the second flag raised for a reason: A high-ranking officer decided that he wanted the first flag that was raised, so this group of guys were raising a second flag. Read the book - especially this section. The photographer talks about how the elements were just perfect for this pic.

My history is a little off..did this happen before or after they nuked the Japanese?

True, and thanks -- I neglected to mention that point. It was the Secretary of the Navy, James Forrestal, who was present and wanted the flag. When his desire for the flag was relayed to the battalion commander, it was not taken well. With appropriate profanities, he declared that the flag belonged to the battalion. He decided to get it for the battalion before anyone else got it for Forrester, so he sent an officer to get a replacement flag. Included in the instructions were "make it a bigger one."

ETA: Both the flags are now in the Marine Corps Museum in Washington.

Before. (February of 1945, with the bombings in August of that year.)

I heard on the news this morning that one of the men was from Arizona. They (the news station) won't actually be talking about it until this evening, so I'll have to watch the 5 o'clock news. I guess the man actually lost a battle to alcohol (shrugging my shoulders since that is what the news said). They mentioned his name very briefly but I didn't catch it.

I'm looking forward to seeing this movie since I'm a huge ww2 buff.

That would be Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian from the Gila River Indian Community. He did suffer from survivor guilt, depression and alcoholism after the war.

A song about him, The Ballad of Ira Hayes, was recorded by Johnny Cash in 1964.

Thanks :D

I've heard that the monument in DC depicting this scene has 13 hands (two of each of the six men (obviously), plus the hand of God). Has anyone else heard this? Is it true or just a myth?

Some people say that if you look at the monument from exactly the right angle, you can see a 13th hand, but it's urban legend.

There is a great back story about the man who is closest to the ground. But, I don't want to ruin it for those of you who haven't read the book or plan to see the movie. But, it's really a great story. :)

Well, just got back from seeing it... and I gotta say that it wasn't the movie I was expecting at all. The film was great, but don't go expecting a gung-ho or yeah America picture - the film deals more with the personal story of those who raised the flag.

Anyways Eastwood did a very interesting job of examining the meaning of "hero" as well as the use of propaganda and heroes - and the impact this has on some "unfortunate" enough to be a hero.

The most memorable scene for me and others watching the film (without spoiling anything for anyone) would be the "cake scene"... I hope you all understand when you see it.

Finally one of the generals mentioned that Eastwood was planning/hoping to do a follow-up to the film dealing with the Japanese side "Letters from Iwo Jima" - I hope he goes through with it.

I was able to finish the book during the earthquake/power outage. I must say that all the men had interesting backgrounds leading up to the flag raising, and I can't wait to see the movie. I'm particularly interested in seeing the portrayal of their Sgt. Mike Strank.

Letters from Iwo Jima is opening in Japan (not sure of the date) but will eventually be in the US w/ subtitles.

Normally, I try not to watch war-type movies (mainly because of some of the things that happen in the fighting scenes), but this movie was really good. I expected the movie to have a larger audience, but the theatre I was in was not even 1/4 full.

It was a great movie though. I liked the way they explained how it was the second flag, their personal stories, and as someone already mentioned, the "cake scene" was very symbolic as well.

I agree with most of the posters here.
I took in a 12:30 PM show and there may have been 15 people in the seats; some of "a certain generation".
I had read in my local paper ( the books' author lives near by) about the movie so was aware that the story line and time line shifts. I found knowing that helps. Also helpful that I had read the book first. But while not needed to enjoy the movie, if one sees the movie, I would suggest getting the book for a more detailed, fuller understanding of not only the battle but the people involved.

The movie shows heros, what they were and what they are. As shown in movie/book, the term is some times put on someone. As my Uncle told me ( was put up for a Silver Star, awarded the Bronze) he never thought of himself as a hero as all he did was try to stay alive and keep others alive while doing his job, his duty. The hero's were, and are still on the beach, in the fields or the forest. And this is something he just started to talk about in the past few years; a year in his life starting on June 6th.

For those who still can, if you have a father, grandfather or uncle of that generation or mine, sit down with them while you can. That is something I am sorry I can not do now.

And if you go to the move, stay for the credits. Worth the time.

As is reading the authors second book "Fly Boys".

Trust me I am - for both the purpose of understanding what my grandfather survived, and to get as much information from him as possible for some of his experiences... but he is still hesitant to talk about what he witnessed during the Siege of Malta left (the only volunteer only posting for the RAF/RAAF/RCAF in WWII) - but luckly like the book "Flags of our Fathers" there is are some written personal acounts of those dark days (which he features in).

OK, I suppose this is a matter of language. Fact is, though, that the picture is not of the original raising of the flag.

In reality, it dosen't matter, though. It is a spectacular picture which has become a symbol to us. I don't find any problem in that. I just think that the circumstances, including some misunderstandings, are interesting.

My dad is a (European Theatre) WWII veteran. I'm going home to see him next weekend. I wonder if he would like to see the movie. He's not in good health -- and members of what Tom Brokaw calls "The Greatest Generation" are dying at an increasingly rapid rate. We owe them a lot.

DeltAlum-Yes, we all do. Do you know if he saw SPR? If he did, then he would enjoy seeing this movie. Hope he is good health and spirts during your visit.

Going to see the movie in a little while. Let me clarify a couple of things that I said that might have been taken the wrong way.

Yes, all of the men in the picture had interesting back stories before the war. The back story I was referring to about the man in front has to do with some "confusion" and the man's mother - don't want to say more than that; anyone who read the book or saw the movie will know what I meant.

DeltAlum - I wasn't trying to show you up when I mentioned that it was not a 're-staging'. Most people hear 're-staging' and think: Okay, the photographer didn't get the picture taken correctly the first time, let's pretend this is the first time again and let him try and get it right. Go back to MysticCat's pictures and review the last passage that he covered and you will understand why he and I were both pointing out that it was not a restaging.

Heads Up-The History Channel is running several shows tonight about both the Flag Raising as well as the battle itself.
Just watched a great two hour show on just the flag raising. Great back story on every part of it. Including film and taped interviews with flag raisers, troops, the shooters, as well as family members.

Now doing an inside view of the battle.

Both shows, no doubt will be repeated. Catch them if you have interest in this. Besides TV page, www.historychannel.com should have info.

Quite true, but it's an important matter of language. As LaneSig points out, use of the words "staging" or "re-staging" implies that the picture was posed. In light of the historical confusion about this, I was just concerned that calling the raising of the second flag a "restaging" is not only inaccurate, but perpetuates the confusion.

My dad as well, DeltAlum, although he is gone now.

But we never could get more than the smallest bits of information out of him about the war. He kept some momentos -- the backpack that I carried to school everyday was his army rucksack, and we always had framed on the wall a picture of a German village that his interpreter painted for him -- but other than teaching me little bits of German, he simply wouldn't talk about the war, certainly not in any detail at all. After he died, we found some letters that shed a little bit of light on what life must have been like for him, but that is it.

My experience is that WWII vets fall into two camps -- those that love to talk about it and that keep in touch with their old comrades and those, like my father, who barely acknowledge that it happened.

my dad's uncle (my greatuncle?) was in the battle of buldge and I guess the rest of Europe too. We know that he killed machine gunners one day. His answer to how many: all of them. He lost count, he killed every emeny he found though. He told me that once, and I don't think I'll ever bring it up again. I didn't bring it up the first time, but I defetly won't ever ask anyone about their experience again unless I sense they want to talk (I heard this story in a group, and I think those types of conversations should be one on one, if they take place at all.)

Some veterans want to talk about their experience -- some just want to forget and move on -- sometimes that's for their own good, I think.

My late uncle (Dad's brother) didn't talk much about his experiences, but after a few beers on day told me the story of how he won the Bronze Star.

He was a corporal in the Infantry in France during WWII. They had converted an anti-aircraft gun into basically a big anti-personal machine gun. One night, a couple of men who were manning the piece were killed and they asked for volunteers to replace them.

My uncle and another guy volunteered and were sitting on the gun in the middle of the night when they heard German speaking voices in the hedge rows and saw some German soldiers coming out of a tree line. He turned to the other volunteer and asked if he knew how to fire the weapon. The other guy said no, he thought my uncle did.

They couldn't figure out how to fire.

The Germans looked around and then went back into the trees and never came back again. My uncle figures that if they had fired the gun, they would have been killed.

An interesting way to win a Bronze Star.

the most i've been able to piece together is that he or him and his buddies got seperated from their unit or their unit go away from the platoon or something, anyway, he wound behind the enemy, and saw a nest. He knew they didn't see him so he snuk up behind them and noticed another and another...adults in my family who have heard more have told me there were at least around 10 -15 nests with 2-3 people each. That is at least 20people, so no wonder he doesn't talk about it. I'm glad that I'll probably never have to do anything like that. Killing one person would seriously mess me up more than I am, if I had take out 30, I'm pretty sure I'd be gone in the head forever.

My late grandfather wasn't in the war. He was an engineer at Ford so those men didn't get drafted so they could help produce tanks and such for the war (or so I've heard). However, he played a very big part in the war...He was one of the engineers on the Manhattan Project.

I never learned about it until years after he had died when it somehow came up at a family gathering. Apparently he was extremely ashamed of it. The government basically came to the car companies and asked for their brightest engineers, and he was a chosen. He had shown my brother some of the old files he had in his basement at one point. Interestingly, the day of his funeral my brother went to look for them when we got back from the wake - they were gone. We don't know if grandpa had gotten rid of them at some point, or if "someone" else had...I'm such a conspiracy theorist!!!