Court Martial and Death Penalty Sought in Iraq Murder Case
 

Wow. This will be interesting to watch.

A lot of people will claim a case of scapegoting (new word).

Talk about controversial.

It's not that controversial. If they are going found guilty, they will serve their time (prison or death). The killing innocent civilians by the army is not anything "new" or "controversial", IMHO. I hope justice is served.

I expect to see alot of "scapegoating" going around - after all thats what the accused in the Canadian Friendly Fire case, the Abu Gharib case, the Afghanistan NGO murder case, etc. have all done.... I guess it's a variation of the "it's not my fault, society's to blame" arguement.

Do I believe that the US Army is making an example of them? Without a shadow of a doubt. The US Army wants to so both the troops and the world, that the won't tolerate these criminal acts and gross breaches of military discipline... of course the new Army recruiting focus of "Army Strong" which focusing on strength of character might also play some role.

yeah, I don't think "army of one" was the effective. Yeah, it sounds cool, but who would join an army, any army, if they implied when I signed up that they would send me somewhere by myself?

(I get at max. two serious posts per day, and the other one was dark)

That article made me physically sick. I don't believe in the death penalty but I do want the soldiers prosecuted to the highest extent of the law.

While I beleive with someone who berates another GCer and Member in Her SIGNATURE, it is a double edged sword.

While the Iraqies are killing people willy nilly whether it be Troops who are trying to help, no, they kill innocent people.. So, who is / are the Animals there?:mad:


centaur532, amazing you feel this way after character assination in another posting thread.:rolleyes:

point a) berating is not the same as telling someone to shut up
point b)whether someone berates a member of a public message board or not, her opinion is not invalidated by this action. T
point c) the animals are anyone who kills innocent civilians
point d) Did you JUST compare "character assination" with killing civilians?
SERIOUSLY?

Again, what the hell are you talking about?

Tom, you aren't seriously comparing murder to a GC signature?

So... if you (arguably) participate in character assassination you must also believe in the death penalty? Or you must also feel that murder is okay and murderers should not be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. My head hurts.

GUILTY!

/and reported ;)

Can I just get a definition on character assassination? Please? That makes no sense.

It's basically Slander/libel. If I said you were a no good dirty rat to all your friends, family, coworkers, boss, etc... that'd be character assassination.

Telling people on a message board to shut up is NOT character assassination.

Wiki No one here is assassinating anyone. Disliking someone and sharing that opinion with others is not the same thing.

I think character assassination is the dumbest phrase I've ever heard. Assassination is the murder of an important person, a figurehead, a national or international leader.

Why can't people just say defamation of character? And for that matter, nothing in my signature or thread is defaming anyone.

In this case (if the allegations are true) the filth is clearly the "soldiers". :mad: There is no arguing or excusing such repugnant acts, nor is there no arguing or excusing their gross breach of military discipline in a war zone.

Seriously Tom in the Canadian, Australian, or British militaries they could have been summarily shot on the spot by an officer just for being drunk and abandoning their post. In the French (regular and Foreign Legion) it would have been a firing squad made up of their own unit - the very men they betrayed and endangered.

I have zero sympathy for any of these "soldiers", nor for anyone that tried to cover it up - or made excuses for their crimes.

I don't think anyone is condoning the acts of these soldiers, if indeed they're guilty. However, the outrage over events like this is ironic, considering the international silence that occurs whenever American citizens are killed...

Well, actually if you check out the dictionary ("assasinate"), you'll find:

1. to kill suddenly or secretively, esp. a politically prominent person; murder premeditatedly and treacherously.
2. to destroy or harm treacherously and viciously: to assassinate a person's character.

(Emphasis original to dictionary.com. My 1966 Random House unabridged has the same definitions.)

Because they're not necessarily the same thing. Character assassination is form of defamation with the particular purpose of ending someone's political or business career or a similar effect. As the Wiki article that Drolefille linked says: Such acts are typically very difficult to reverse or rectify, therefore the process is correctly likened to a literal assassination of a human life. The damage sustained can be life-long and more, or for historical personages, last for many centuries after their death.

American civilians? or American citizens? two different beasts

I meant to say civilians, but yeah.

I tip my proverbial cap to you then Mysticcat though Earp completely misused the expression. I had never heard the phrase before yesterday. I suppose you could refer to Mary Magdelene as a famous victim of character assassination.

Shinerbock, I believe the outrage here is that these soldiers were part of an invasion into another country where they then preyed on the civilians of that country. It's like walking into someone else's house, taking off your shoes and shooting their dog.
I am no less outraged by the kidnappings and murders of Americans, Brits, etc. Jill Carroll, for instance, was a UMASS alum and someone we never forgot during her entire ordeal.
The outrage is similar to the emotions on 9/11. Someone came into our country and killed our people.
When you're in the military, you do your damn job and nothing but your job. This murder was pre-meditated and appalling.

Bingo! She wasn't just defamed, her character was assassinated, and it took centuries to get past that. (Although I could make the argument that the current Da Vinci Code-esque treatments of her have started a new dafamation of her.)

But you got it exactly.

I thought that those were pro-Magdelene

There's still no historical evidence for it.

I'm sure you're outraged by American death, I'm referring to people who will gleefully jump on soldiers, yet remain silent when Americans are killed. As for the soldiers, I don't believe they've been convicted yet.

They indeed purport to be pro-Magdelene. But if they portray her as something she was not (and there is no evidence to back up the Holy Blood, Holy Grail and Da Vinci Code-type claims about her), then they defame her. My guess is that she would be equally horrified by her portrayal over many centuries as a former harlot and by her portrayal as the wife of Jesus, mother of his children and "Holy Grail." (Of course, that presumes she would have any idea what a '"holy grail" is, given that she was from Judea and the "holy grail" is rooted in Celtic myth.)

there's no historical evidence for any of the rest that either (jesus, apostles, etc.)

But at least the Gospels (written within decades of when Jesus would have lived) and other early Christian writings can be compared to other historic evidence to try and get a somewhat historical picture.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail and The Da Vinci Code rely on distortions of the historical evidence, and in some instances are outright contradicted by the historical evidence, with everything being viewed heavily through a conspiracy theory lens.

Besides the fact that the early Christian writings show hints of veracity (took a whole course in this) look at Josephus.. a non-Christian historian who mentions Jesus. He existed... whether he was the Son of God is your call :)

Ditto to MysticCat.

Josephus is not a reliable source. He refers to Jesus as 'the son of god' in his writings. Someone obviously got to it and tainted the record. Sorry, took a 'Bible as History' class and this was the kind of thing we covered. There actually isn't that much written evidence as to Jesus' existence. A census here and there maybe.

If you put stock in a novel, you deserve everything you get. The Da Vinci Code was neat and it would be awesome if it were true, but come on...

Hey, I took a class too, but I hate going into this stuff :p

Heh, I don't have my notes handy anywhere. I hated the professor but the subject matter was interesting. I'd love to go back and talk with him some more. At the time I hated him because I felt he was attacking my religion. Then his attacks shook my faith to an unrecoverable point. Now I'm grateful for it.
This stuff is fascinating to me.

lol my teacher was great too, though since my class was at a Jesuit university the point was seperating "Jesus of History" from "Christ of Faith"

Very good. Some people couldn't deal with it either.

/I also hate to get into these debates at work... can't type as much as I'd like... AND we need a debate forum ;)

And yet some people do. :rolleyes:

BTW, you're quite correct that there is little if any real contempory evidence of Jesus's historicity. Those writers that do mention him, like Josephus, do not attest to his actual existence as much as to what was believed/not believed about him, or perhaps have been subject to revisionism.

One could argue that the Gospels and other contemporary writings about Jesus that were not accepted as canonical must have some basis (with regard to the existence and teachings of the person, not necessarily with regard to the resurrection or other beliefs) in historical fact. One could also argue that the growth of the early church cannot be explained absent a historical Jesus who bore at least some resemblence to the Jesus of the Gospels.

At the end, it's definitely a question of faith, not of historical evidence.

Okay. /highjack