Do most guys actually receive bids?
 

Do most of the guys who rush receive at least one bid from any fraternity? What is the rate of guys who don't receive any bids at all? What are the qualities of guys who don't receive any bids? I know it changes from school to school but still.

I just heard this story on yesterday and thought it would be worth repeating.

The cousin of someone I just met graduated from my alma mater, where there are only two NIC orgs. The cousin was a double legacy of one of the fraternities. He really wanted to be part of the organization and studied the chapter's website from beginning to end. He even memorized names and faces.

When the chapter had an open house or something like that, he went up to the members and said "Hi my name is _____. You must be John Smith, Class of 2009."

And so on....and so on.

He wasn't offered a bid. He also didn't pursue membership in any other fraternity.

The cousin of this guy was pretty sure that the members of the chapter were freaked out by this guy and put off by the fact that he researched them on a personal level, but did nothing to actually befriend them before hand.

Moral: Be yourself and don't stalk. I am sure this has led to bidless men in many more places.

Very wide in scope of question and very hard to answer.


But as
Senusret I said, it is not always true that a legacy gets in.

I do not know of anyone who tracks the figures that you are looking for in NIC Groups.

As was said, one should be yourself and do not act to over powering. Most Organizations want people who will fit with them and vise versa.

On the flip side, there have been marginal recruits who have become a major player in their organization.

One just never knows.:D

It really depends on both the structure of the rush and the campus culture. For example, if the nature of fraternity rush is a series of open parties, then there may be more guys attending rush events that are only there for the free food etc. These guys most likely won't receive a bid.

Like Tom said, few (if any?) IFCs keep track of the number of bids extend. Even if the IFC does keep track, statistically it can be hard to use the date in a reliable way. Especially when guys are eligible for more than one bid. For example, there could be three guys. Adam receives two bids, Ben receives one bid, and Carl received zero bids. The total number of bids issued were three. And when you divide the number of bids extended (3) by the number of guys going through rush (3), then statistically, it comes out to 1 bid per man. Yet the reality is that one man did not receive any bids.

If reported, it might end up something like this.

Number of men rushing = 3
Bids extended = 3
Bids accepted = 2

From this, you can not tell if all three men rushing received a bid. Also, the percentage of men receiving at least one bid, and accepting one, is off. The reality with this example is that 100% of the men who received a bid, accepted a bid.

My point is this is why few IFCs keep track. The numbers don't really mean much unless they are very detailed. And bottom line, few IFCs - or campuses - need (require) this type of information.

The simple answer is that guys that are not worthy (a good fit), do not receive bids.

However, for the sake of discussion, let us rephrase the question to the following. Why would a guy who *is* a good fit, not receive any bids? I would simply answer that he is an unknown to the chapter. And perhaps, the chapter is unknown to him. Why? Maybe he is shy. Maybe he doesn't sign up for formal. Maybe he is from a small town and no one knows him on campus yet. And worse, a chapter may be too lazy to get to know the guy.

So from the chapter's perspective, it can behoove them to get to know as many quality guys as they can. Do some work. And from the rushee's perspective, it behooves him to make himself known - in a positive way. Get out and meet the fraternities.

TSteven -

I totally agree with the 'worse' scenerio. Too many times the attitude of a chapter is "Why aren't these guys coming to see us?", when they should be thinking "We need to get out and find more guys." Many chapters seem to wait for the guys to come to them instead of making an effort to go find the guys.

In my fraternity, we looked more people we could be good friends with than "brothers"...I mean, we like guys who are excited about pledgeship and whatnot, but it comes down to if the guy is cool (can he hang out, drink some beer, talk about sports, politics, whatever), would he be a good friend/brother (take care of the house, step up and take responsibility, is he dependable) and other things, like how he presents himself, whether he's good with girls, etc...Basically, we look for people who instantly get along with the brothers, fit right in, etc.

I agree. To me, this kind of sums up what I mean by a good fit.

It's easy to assume that because they don't come to a rush party that they would not fit in. Yet many "good fits" are simply not known cause they don't sign up or come to a rush event.

They may be friends of current pledges, members, alumni - even sororities. Incoming freshmen and transfers (upperclassmen) that don't really know much about fraternities and "how to" rush. Athletes who may not be able to rush during formal (be it summer, fall or spring) and may need to be recruited (rushed) informally or during the off season.

Any of these guys may be great fits - i.e. friends, cool, and can hang with his brothers. And be a great assist to the chapter and fraternity as a whole.

I think that's how it generally works in most places.

There are also a few chapters that bid just about anyone or anything out there, then try to weed people out during pledgeship.

To answer the question, at my alma mater when I was there, no. The vast majority went bidless. Like, way more than was acceptable when all the IFC groups had the same complaint that no one was rushing...there were 150 dudes that rushed that semester, less than 30 recieved bids, and every sigle org. issued a formal complait with the IFC office which led to a re-structure of how we did rush. This was in my juinor year, by the time I left it was a bit better, but not much, now they have more requirements for time conflicts, etc, but I still think that, no, you have about a 1 in 3 shot.

My point was that we're really not looking for rah rah brotherhood...We're simply looking for good guys we can hang out with, who can be an asset to the place, etc. We don't take the fraternity as serious as in other places, we're in it because of who we are...who we are isn't definined by the fraternity. This isn't downplaying the role of a fraternity, its just that some places put fraternal bonds on a pedestal, often in attempt to make up for them being terrible on campus. The whole "we're not a cookie cutter fraternity..." or "quality over quantity..." stuff, is what i'm talking about. Granted, I'm also not into being a huge chapter because you throw bids at people either, but regardless of how "quality" your brothers are, you're probably not a good chapter if you've got 30 guys on a major campus.

Shinerbock,

What would your cut off point be?

I think, obviously, you need enough guys to be a functioning group: to afford a house if the campus norm is to have houses, to have decent socials, etc.

But a chapter that holds steady at 30 could be okay depending on what was average for that campus. 50 to 75 might be even better, but when the groups get bigger than than, it seems to me that you get some goofy politics going inside the group that men seem to avoid in the smaller groups.

A group of thirty guys could genuinely be friends and accept and share the responsibility of being a group, but with big groups it seems to me that you get a lot of guys who want the letters to pick up girls and the house to have parties, but they won't actually do the work that is expected of a chapter by nationals.


Why are men's and women's rushes so different? Why can sororities do okay pledging some people they may not really know that well, but fraternities only seem to want to give bids to guys they already know?

Should guys' formal or "official" rush be spread out over a longer period of time, so guys who go to a campus on which they don't have any connections have a chance to get to know people? Or maybe Greek Life should explain the actual policies of groups so they would know not to rush until later?

It seems to me that some of the guys who may go bidless might not be total losers, but they just aren't known.

Fraternities are from Mars, sororities are from Venus.

Stupid attempt at humor aside, I really don't see that there is a "general" problem with IFC/NIC rush. Some chapters and/or some campuses may have an occasional problem or issue on "how to" rush successfully, but not "the system" as a whole. To be clear, there may be lazy chapters, but that isn't "the system's" fault or issue.

Again, it works. With all due respect, it seems all to often that NPC members try to mold IFC/NPC rush into their idea of how IFC/NIC rush should be implemented - i.e. "like NPC". And while that might (can) work on some campuses, for the most part, it is not needed. Remember that since IFC/NIC chapters don't have to deal with quota or campus total, the numbers don't matter the way they do with NPC chapters.

For example, on many campuses, IFC/NIC chapters tend to be smaller in membership number per chapter than NPC chapters. But often 1.5 to twice as many IFC/NIC chapters. This allows each IFC/NIC chapter to be more selective and invite guys that would fit with the rest of the chapter. The core of which is often guys already known by chapter members. Or referred to them by alumni or friends. (Hmmm. Sounds kind of similar to NPC and recommendations.) So ABC chapter might stay steady at 70 members while XYZ chapter stays steady at 100. Yet both would be considered "strong" chapters on campus.

No. It is not needed. However, chapters should rush (recruit) year round. And campuses should open up rush so that "formal" rush is at least twice a year - i.e. summer/fall and spring/winter.

Please note that for the sake of discussion, I am lumping summer and fall rush into one group and winter and spring in another group.

Not sure I follow. But from what I gather, yes, it would help if rush policies are known. As an example, it would be good if men knew that there is both a summer/fall rush and a spring/winter rush. And that it is "ok" to wait until either to rush. Or to go about it informally. What best suits the rushee and the chapter.

I concur 100%.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I thought NPC rush was better. I actually like the freedom that fraternity rush gives groups as far as an acceptable range of membership size and control of recruitment.

I don't know of any campuses on which sororities aren't pressured to make quota, reach total or both.

But fraternities seem okay as long as membership stays large enough to be healthy in terms of future recruitment.

My last point was simply that it would be helpful for freshman men to know that at some (most?) campuses they are unlikely to get a bid if they go through rush without knowing people in the groups already.

Some guys might think that bids are extended based on how they present themselves during rush and might not know they really don't stand a chance of getting a bid if they don't know the guys already. (Particularly because the processes of IFC and NPC rush are presented pretty similarly on many greek life sites, even if it's clear that NPC is way more structured.)

If PNM guys knew that the groups were giving bids all year, then they would know to maybe attend a few things, meet some folks and develop friendships with group members, then maybe formally rush.

I'm just feeling bad for nice guys who would probably make good members but just don't know how it really works on their campus.

As long as you're at a school where guys from your high school attend or your dad attended, you probably understand the system and have connections. But if you go out of state and are one of few folks from your hometown, good luck!

Mea Culpa!
 

Alphagamuga: No need to apologize. I didn't take from your post that you thought NPC rush was better. However, in rereading my reply, it looked like I did. Sorry about that.

I really think your point is a very valid and important one.

I would just add that both the IFC and the chapters need to do a better job with getting the word about rush. Doing so can help to elevate the number of potential members that a chapter might consider for a bid. To be clear, chapters should bid only those men that are good fits for the chapter. But it may also help to keep many of the "good fits" from slipping through the cracks.

One other point. I also believe that if a chapter doesn't want to have more than one rush a year, and it works for them, then more power to them. However, it just seems like many of the strong chapters do rush year round. Both formally and informally.

Well, obviously we look for different things...Regarding the question about size, I think it just depends. I think you could be a really good fraternity at 30-50 people, if you were extremely exclusive, had very high dues, etc...But you couldnt just decide to do it, it would take time to build an organization like that. I think 80-100 is a good number, at my campus...It allows for the average 30 man pledge class, with room to drop pledges and for the brothers who may drop or leave school or whatnot.

So if i'm coming from another state to a new school and rushing to fraternities in the campus there is no way of me getting a bid because i don't know any of those guys even if i might be a great fit to that fraternity?

Yes, you could still get a bid from a chapter on campus. A lot depends on the chapter and location of where you are going. Many of the chapters and the larger southern schools will already have a good idea of who is getting bids due to summer rush parties. Does that me you have no chance? No. Go to the rush parties, talk yourself up (remember, you are selling you to them as much as them selling their chapter to you), and be open to all the different chapters on campus.

If it is a smaller southern school, being from out of state is not a problem at all. If anyone on here can give advice about the midwest, northeast, etc. please do so.

It's a californian school.

Here are the numbers i found for my school's IFC:

School: San Diego State University
Number of Rushees at the first event: 500+
Number of Rushees at the house tours: 330
Number of Bids Given: 475

It seems to me like almost everyone who rushed got bids, but some people received more than one.

I don't think you'll have any problem getting a bid at a CA school.

That's cool to know.

We have open first bidding. If we have met you, you're pretty much 100% getting a first bid. Many drop after the first education session when they learn about dues, requirements, etc. We then have a 2nd bid process by which, 2-3 weeks before initiation, each associate members comes up for review and must get a 3/4 affirmative vote to be initiated. If they don't make that vote, they are dropped.

GMU is...unlike most schools.

Other fraternities on our campus operate differently.

Good point.

Many IFC/NIC organizations have something similar. An "initial" bid is extended to, and accepted by, the pledge. National and/or chapter by-laws may then require an affirmative vote by the chapter at a later date for initiation. As such, an IFC/NIC bid does not guarantee initiation.

FYI, some IFCs/NICs have this information on their IHQ websites as well.

I would guess that most receive bids unless they are real tools or have a last names like Dorfman.

If a dude wants to be in a fraternity bad enough: he can be. There are usually enough "fringe" houses that will take anybody just to boost numbers or have a warm body to pick up cups after a party.

That said, the best scenarios are when both parties choose each other. Like 2 dogs sniffing each other out, they both have to be in agreement. They mutually select one another. The fraternity selects it's pledges and hopefully the rushees pick the same house. Any other situation and one likes another more than the other and it's not balanced...all in all...we used to give out bids to about 50% of the people who rushed...

As GreekHoodies said, it is a feeling out process between the Chapter members and the possible rushee. If neither feels comfortable then, it will not work.

No, not everyone will get a bid.

Just knowing someone in the chapter will not garuntee anything. But, it will help.

Alot depends on the size of the chapter and how selective they wish to be.

As far as "tools", there have been many marginal new members who have gone to outstanding members for the chapter, the organization, and the country.

It varies from campus to campus, but of the 500 some guys who rushed, 150 didn't get bids at my campus.

in another thread firehouse had proposed a rush schedule that sounded that it might be effective for some chapters desiring to raise their numbers .basically, the chapter would participate in formal recruitment, pledge the desired guys, get them started on their pledgeship and recruit another pledge class, and repeat until they were at the desired number of members.

he was not talking about "warm bodies", he was talking about guys whom one would be proud to call "brother", who would be an asset to the chapter.

i have heard ifc representatives on several different campuses(all in the south) lament,"we need more guys to sign up for recruitment". i never asked them how they go about advertising rush, or how they recruit-i wish that i had, just for curiosity sake. it seems that they have one rush and no matter what the outcome, they are done for the year.

do numbers not matter to fraternity chapters? large numbers in sorority chapters usually mean a strong, popular chapter. if a sorority does not pledge quota, or is under total, they work very hard to meet that goal, even if it means continual recruiting. what gives guys?

What campuses? Most of the big southern greek schools do fine. Most kids who don't rush are ones we don't really want. Sure there are some exceptions, but I'm not really sure what you're referring to when you say they need more people to go through rush.

Numbers can matter, but not necessarily the same way they might with NPC chapters.

IFC doesn't have a campus imposed quota or total. As such, largest may not always equal the best. I feel it is more important for a chapter to be competitive "all around". As in being at or near the top in all things important on campus and within the campus Greek Life world. As such, being one of the largest chapters has it's advantages. In additional to numbers (which looks good on campus i.e. "they are the biggest"), you have the manpower to be tops in areas like campus leadership, sports, "social graces" (who throws the "best" parties and gets the "best" girls"), campus events (Greek Week, Homecoming etc.) among other areas. And more often than not, a chapter that is one of the best on campus, usually continues to pledge the best. You also end up with alumni that are damn proud of their chapter and they often give back. All this due to tradition and respect as it were. But it does come back to the members (numbers) that make it happen.

As a disclaimer, you don't have to be one of the largest to be one of the best. But it sure as heck doesn't hurt.

Unless, of course, a group becomes the biggest by taking any warm body they can find, and there isn't enough wheat among the chaff to make that strategy pay off.

Most good top chapters already know who is in their pledge class before rush even starts.

I tend to agree with this.

My guess is that the IFC representative feel a "need" for more guys so that there are more guys available during formal rush. Perhaps they are doing this to help the chapters that don't have the ability (finances, manpower, alumni) to rush year round.

For example, on many campuses, the perceived "top" chapters take as many guys as they want over the summer. They can do this because they have the budget to rush year round and have numerous rush parties over the summer. By the time fall comes, they usually have most of their pledge class in place. As such, the number of men available (without a bid) during fall is lower. Either because the "summer" guys accepted a bid and do not need to sign up, or because they have to sign up but already know where they are going. And while the "top" chapters may have most of their pledge class in place, they do continue to rush. Which can result in an even smaller number of guys available for the rest of the chapters. To be clear, all the guys may be great. Just that certain chapters may get more members than other chapters due to their ability (finances, manpower, alumni) to rush year round. Thus having more guys "available" during formal rush helps all the chapters.

Oh I couldn't agree more. Which is why I feel it is more important for a chapter to be competitive.

Ditto.

Granted, I've said stuff like "it'd be cool if we had more people go through rush" but that doesn't mean I just want people, it means I want more people who we'd actually consider bidding. Numbers are good and can be helpful, but they're second fiddle to quality.

Your pont is well taken and I agree, but, there is always the gem in the rough who turns out be very outstanding. Wonder if cookie cutting fits here?

It is much easier for larger chapters to recruit in certain areas but again "THE BUT, not every Chapter is # 1,2, or 3.

Cut out the schools that do not seem to fit the criteria of some on here, what about the many schools that are not huge.

Take those away and many GLOs will be very small in numbers and members.

I guess I understand your point there Tom, but I just am not really concerned about the other schools. I'll leave it to them to figure out how to achieve whatever it is they want.