Thailand WTF??
 

This is so messed up. Has anyone else heard about this? What's going on? :confused: :eek:

Um.. details?

Do you mean the coup that is supported by the nation's military? Because I don't know anything else beyond that.

there was a coup while Bush was giving his speech to the UN, and also in the news because so many American men are travelling to Thailand for its vibrant and somewhat deviant sex industry, HIV rates in America are rising because the tourists are coming back home and having unprotected sex with numerous partners...

anything else in the news?

"One night in Bangkok
Makes a hard man humble.
Not much between
Despair and ecstasy.
One night in Bangkok
And the tough guys tumble.
Can`t be too careful
With your company.
I can feel the devil
Walking next to me."

-Murray Head
from the musical Chess

Oh, yeah, then there was the coup.

But also of importance is that the military leader who led the coup and is now in power (General Sonthi Boonyaratglin)is a Muslim in a mostly Buddhist country. (Islam makes up only 4-percent of the population of Thailand).

This is of note as there have been numerous Muslim political uprisings from the three provinces bording Malasia. There has been religious extremism and violence in this Muslim community.

The new party is called the Council for Democratic Reform under Constitutional Monarchy (CDRM)... however, it is quite the misnomer since he has already drastically curtailed democratic rights.

In fact, he has imposed martial law, thrown out the constitution, an dissolved the national parliament. Any demonstrations or political gatherings are banned. Censorship requirements have been imposed on the media.

It's gotten so bad that radio stations are not allowed to take phone calls, and webmaster are being held accountable by the new government for everything posted on their site (including bulletin board postings by Thai residents).

now that's how a bloodless coup is done...

I used to love that song.

BTW, did you know the real, full name of Bangkok, which in Thailand is called Krung Thep (Bangkok is a district and historical center of Krung Thep) is:

Krung Thep Maha Nakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayutthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udom Ratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Phiman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanu Kamprasit, which means

"The city of angels, the great city, the eternal jewel city, the impregnable city of God Indra, the grand capital of the world endowed with nine precious gems, the happy city, abounding in an enormous Royal Palace that resembles the heavenly abode where reigns the reincarnated god, a city given by Indra and built by Vishnukam."

My son's current favorite bit of trivia (not that he can say the whole name, but he loves to try to mumble through it).

/back to the coup.

yeah, there's some riots in Romania about gov't. corruption.

that i didn't know, that gives me a reason at least, as to why

Free Thailand!!

I don't think that the general's religion has much if anything to do with the coup. Prime Minister Thaksin has been a fairly controversial figure in Thai politics lately -- very popular in some quarters while very unpopular and distrusted in many others -- and the country has been in somewhat of a state of political crisis for a while. Following elections in April (which parties opposed to Thaksin had boycotted to protest what they saw as Thaksin's manipulation of the process), the subsequent invalidation of that election by the courts who stepped in at the request of the king, and a meeting with the king, Thaksin had said he would act only as Caretaker Prime Minister when the legislature convened again.

The king endorsed the coup the day after it occurred, and there is fairly wide speculation and assumption that he supported, at least tacitly, the coup, prior to its occurrence. It is presumed that the coup could not have occurred or succeeded without the king's support.

There have been a number of coups during the king's 60-year reign, and the king's influence and immense popularity should not be underestimated.

Do you mean Hungary?

I'd let you watch
we would invite you
but the queens we use
would not excite you...

yeah, i think so....either way, it sucks...there seems to be a lot of this going on lately

You bring up Islam and equate extremism with it. That part of the world has alot of religious rebels/militants of many stripes. Your post makes it seem like religion was the ultimate drive for the coup when it's obviously not.

Religion is not the issue here. It's government internal problems.

Hmmm...

Yes it's Islam that is the only hotbed of extremism in South East Asia :rolleyes:

Perhaps you should look into the number of Christian (and specifically Roman Catholics) extremists/militants that have been responsible for attacks and killings in the region...

So what if the guy is Muslim, a Muslim (like a Christian) can come in a lot of "flavours". Is he overtly religious or secular? Is he a fundamentalist or mainstream? Is he a spiritualist or literalist? These are the questions I'd like answered, regardless of his particular faith - because Fundamentalist, Literalists, or even Overtly Religious are all waring signs in my opinion...

Just out of curosity, ah any one checked to see how many Democrocies there are in the world? :eek:

It's both. The big problem in Thailand is the extremist Muslim insugency in the southern portion of the country. It was hoped that the general would be able to stop the violence... but he hasn't.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...1-1702,00.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...092700154.html

I agree that there are extremists in many religions. All one has to do is look at the Crusades, or the Salem Witch trials.... hence, why I'm not a fan of organized religion.

However, and maybe Opi can chime in here... what is one to think about Islam when the final words of Mohammed to his disciples was, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

and, in Qur'an :39 it says, "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." and "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief --non Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."

and in Ishaq :587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak and faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violenty before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight unti our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Perhaps I'm not reading these quotes correctly, but it doesn't seem like a faith of tolerance and peace. Opi.. could you please clarify?

I'm starting to seriously doubt religion as a motive anyway, but not ready to rule it out either. apperatly people had the day off work and went to have their pictures taken with soldiers, etc. One guy kept something as a souverior. I read that since that King has been reigning, there have been like 7 coups, and he is now more popular than ever, and probably more powerful than some extremeist groups in his country. Go Thailand!!! I hope they will be okay through this.:(

I read both of those articles. Neither suggests or supports a claim that "the big problem in Thailand is the extremist Muslim insurgency in the southern portion of the country." (Your words, my emphasis.) The closest either gets to that is this from The Australian:

More than 1400 people have died in the conflict in Thailand's far south since early 2004. The violence has been blamed on Malay separatism, religious extremism and organised crime in the border region.

Thaksin Shinawatra, the former premier ousted in last week's coup, has been accused of inflaming tensions there with heavy-handed tactics.

There have been hopes the Muslim army chief who led the coup, General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, may be able to ease the unrest.

Notice that coupled with "religious extremism" is "Malay separatism" (and organized crime). Notice also that nowhere does the article say that this was the reason for the coup.

I'm not saying religious extremism and Malay separatism haven't been a significant problem in Thailand, nor am I denying that many thought the former Prime Minister fanned the flames of the problem. But that's just a part -- and I think in the grand scheme of things, a relatively minor part -- of a much, much bigger picture that led to the coup.

As I said earlier, the popularity of the King -- the longest serving head of state in the world -- and the reverence with which he is viewed in Thailand really can't be overstated.

That song's from Chess?!?! I've never seen Chess - have seen a song performed here or there. I had NO idea! I've never understood all the lyrics, so I never realized what they were talking about. Learn somethin' new...

Lady, this thread is about Thailand, not about Islam.

Second, I hope that you picked up an actual translated Quran and quoted, because there are alot of false verses attributed to the Quran online. I, however, will not be verifying any of these verses for you IF YOU DID GET THEM ONLINE.

Third, even if you got it from the hardcopy of the Quran, you can't just read a passage and run with it. You have to put into context (meaning reading the verses before it, and after it).

Fourth, it seems like you are set to blame this coup on extremist islamist fundamentalist terrorists or whatever word is in right now. You can if you want to, but it will become obvious that you have don't have a clue about world politics.

No, Opi, it's about Thailand and Islam because more than 1700 people have been killed and another 2500 injured on both sides since the Muslim insurgency began in the southern portion of the country January of 2004. Thaksin Shinawatra was thrown out of power last week mainly because of the way he dealt with those Muslim uprisings, among other things. I agree he was a poor leader.. but I'm not pleased at a military coup (btw.. this is Thailand's 18th) and the quick demise of democracy in that country since the coup. The hope was that a Muslim leader would cool the troubles in the Muslim dominated southern portion of the country, but it hasn't.

The reason that I asked you about the quotes is because, like the Bible and other religious books, they can be interpreted many different ways. I'm trying to understand how these words do not urge those of who practice the Islamic faith to demand everyone to convert through force, if necessary. This directly relates to the topic at hand since Thailand is going through a Buddhist/Muslim struggle. There has been a rash of bombings on Buddhist temples, attacks on schools, and police stations.

Would you therefore, be kind enough to explain them to me and put them in context?

Did I misquote what Mohammed said in his final words to his disciples? Did he not say, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

I'm struggling to understand Islam and how it can be a religion of peace. Maybe you can provide some insight.

Well, I hope if the Crusades and the Salem Witch trials are going to be taken into account in critiquing organized religion, charitable works, hospitals, care of the poor, the establishment of educational institutions and the role of organized religion in social movements like the abolitionist and civil rights movements, just to name a few contributions of organized religion, will also get some consideration

You keep saying this, but so far I haven't read a single thing anywhere other than your own posts to back this assertion up. Most articles I have read and most reports I have heard about the coup barely mention the insurgency if they mention it at all, giving much higher priority to a list of other grievances against Thaksin. While I agree that Sonthi was named to head the army in the hopes that he could do better than Thaksin in dealing with the insurgency, I think if you look at the reasons for protests against Thaksin in the last few years, you'll see quite a few things on the "grievance list" ahead of his handling of the insurgency.

(And of course, to treat it as a "Muslim" insurgency may be quite misleading, as it may be as much an ethnic Malay vs. Thai dispute, much how the Catholic-Protestant distinction in Ireland is as much or more about native Irish vs. British as it is about religion).

So what is your source for saying "Thaksin Shinawatra was thrown out of power last week mainly because of the way he dealt with those Muslim uprisings"?

I think blueangel is a little confused about reality... and maybe spelling. Malay Insurgency doesn't equal Muslim Insuregency, rather the "Malay Insurgency" is about Malay seperatism/independence movement that happens to include some fighters that are Muslim... as well as Bhuddists and Christians.

blueangel is also missing the point about some of the attacks on Bhuddist temples - in that, while yes some have been done by Muslim fanatics, others have been done by Communists, militant Christians, and rival Bhuddist sects.

I think you've been reading too much jihad watch. I've copied and pasted the passages you provided, and the top hits (by a few pages) are anti-Islamic websites. This is a redflag that you are going to all the wrong sites. So maybe that's the reason for this sad confusion about Islam. If you are still struggling with the concept of Islam, either a) talk to a practicing muslim b) talk to an Imam c) take a class at a local university. Your long rants are wasting my time.

You want me to explain the entire religion to you in a thread about THAILAND??? :confused:

I'm a little confused... where are these alleged "long rants?" Why will you not answer my questions? Can you not explain these passages to me? Can you not explain what Muhammed meant in his last words to his disciples?

If you are not well studied in Islam, then perhaps someone else here of the Islamic faith would care to answer them?

There is no reason why she needs to defend or interpret anything about her religion on Greekchat. If you are truly interested in understanding Islam, I'm sure there are sources or experts you can consult.

You know when you get a cut and then the cut turns into a scab and you just want to pick at it?

This thread reminds me of that.

Don't question her or you'll get reported!

And I agree it's stupid - it would be like somebody asking me to explain Catholicism in a post about Tanzania.

Do you really think that if _Opi_ was to explain anything to you about Islam, that you'd *BAM* all of a sudden have an epiphany and fully understand Islam....umm I think not.

How about you take some classes on Islam, read the Quran, do something and LEARN FOR YOURSELF.

Just like you said, its easy to take something out of a book and misquote it....so STOP doing it.

I could answer your questions, but it should have been obvious to you that I chose not to. I am well-studied in Islam actually. One of the best classes I took was actually at my alma mater. I'm more than willing to share with you the contact info of the school, if you want... it might help you more than JihadWatch or anything you might get from a thread about THAILAND.

ETA: the last five posters have very good points. You should listen to them.

This is a discussion. If you don't feel qualified to answer my questions, I understand. Is there anyone else who does?

I asked specific questions as they relate to the insurgency in Thailand. None of these passages are misquoted. I'm simply asking for an explanation.

[QUOTE=MysticCat;1329387]Well, I hope if the Crusades and the Salem Witch trials are going to be taken into account in critiquing organized religion, charitable works, hospitals, care of the poor, the establishment of educational institutions and the role of organized religion in social movements like the abolitionist and civil rights movements, just to name a few contributions of organized religion, will also get some consideration[/B]

I agree with this. Organized religion has done much good for the world.. but it has also done much bad throughout history.

You have a very good point regarding the problem of ethnic vs. Thai. I'm sure that is part of the problem as well.

There are many mentions in conventional newspapers about the way Thaksin dealth with unrest in the South and how it was a big factor in the coup, as well as corruption and other factors which spurred the military takeover.

Interestingly, it seems the Muslim voice directly blames Thakskin and the way he was trying to deal with the violence in the Muslim community in the south. Here is a link to a Muslim site for an OpEd on the subject:

From alt.muslim
http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1791_0_24_0_M

"While Muslims account for only 4.6% of Thailand's total population, their presence in the country (a relic of a 1909 deal with the British that left three Muslim-majority Malay states in Thai hands) has been a major factor in the coup in Thailand last week that ousted democratically-elected PM Thaksin Shinawatra, a businessman who was so widely accused of corruption that even the US did not call for his restoration"

This from The Australian:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...1-1702,00.html

"More than 1400 people have died in the conflict in Thailand's far south since early 2004. The violence has been blamed on Malay separatism, religious extremism and organised crime in the border region.

Thaksin Shinawatra, the former premier ousted in last week's coup, has been accused of inflaming tensions there with heavy-handed tactics. There have been hopes the Muslim army chief who led the coup, General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, may be able to ease the unrest. "

And this, from the Christian Science Monitor:

"The dormant conflict awoke in 2001, when the newly elected Thaksin dismantled a security network in the South that provided Bangkok with a link to local Muslim leaders. The move was designed to shut down what the government regarded as an opposition-run organization. The conflict then exploded in January 2004, when a coordinated attack on a weapons arsenal by more than 30 militants unleashed a wave of carnage that has claimed more than 1,700 lives over the past 21 months.

Thaksin's administration had fought the insurgency with an iron fist, allowing security forces to tap phones, ban meetings, detain suspects without charge and impose curfews. This approach raised the ire of human rights groups, who accused the government of extrajudicial killings, kidnappings, and torture.

Moreover, Thaksin's aggressive strategy was failing; by nearly all measures, the violence was escalating. "The heavy-handed policies could not solve the problem," said Srisompob Jitpiromsri, a lecturer of political science at the Prince of Songkhla University in Pattani. "The military can't do this alone; we also need a political solution."

And this, from the NY Times:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/21/news/south.php

"The general who led the coup, Sonthi Boonyaratglin, is himself a Muslim and had clashed with Thaksin over the government's southern policy. Only days before the coup, Sonthi proposed negotiations with the insurgents, only to be brushed off by Thaksin."

Ma'am, don't take this the wrong way, but you state this above, then go on and post these quotations:

I can't imagine how you think these state anything other than the conflict being mostly about Malay separatism, and the Muslim aspect of this is noted only for completeness, noting the difference between the two populations. This does not mean it's a religious problem - and it CERTAINLY does not make the Muslim community violent, warring or any other sort of 'non-peaceful' moniker you'd like to assign. It definitely does not reflect on all Muslim cultures.

It's purely 'ethnic vs. Thai' - your own quotations prove MysticCat's points . . . can you elucidate for me how you're getting where you're at? We're not even on the same map.

Sure we're on the same map! I agree that the problems leading up to the coup were many.. including the insurgency in the South (which is both religiously and ethnically driven).. as well as other factors.. such as corruption on the part of the former leader.

The quotes back up what I have said regarding the problems in the south being a big factor in the coup.

I'm curious as to your take on the coup?

And yet, you have still failed to come up with support for your (unsupportable) statement that "Thaksin Shinawatra was thrown out of power last week mainly because of the way he dealt with those Muslim uprisings." Quite true that the articles you cite describe the way that Thaksion dealt with the Malay insurgency as part of the reason for dissatisfaction with Thaksin. I still don't see a single one that says it was the main reason for the coup, and I can point to many other reasons that are listed more prominently. What I do seem to see is a desire to blame Islamic fundamentalists-terrorists-jihadists regardless.

Opi has answered your questions in effect by telling you that they aren't worth answering, especially (need I say it again) in an Internet forum thread about Thailand and when those questions appear to be derived from reliance on anti-Islamic websites and to indicate an inclination to believe the worst about Islam, regardless of what Opi or anyone else might say.

why don't they make up some kind of deal with Malaysia? they might want some extra states since Signapore left.

And you would know that they were NOT misquoted or taken out of context...how?

Quit pretending like you know so much about this whole thing. Are you Thai? Do you live in Thailand? I think not.

_Opi_ has already told you that she will not answer you, so give it a rest. Again I say, TAKE A CLASS, <b>learn for yourself</b>.