Italian nun shot dead by Somali gunmen
 

MOGADISHU, Somalia - An Italian nun was shot dead at a hospital by Somali gunmen Sunday, hours after a leading Muslim cleric condemned Pope Benedict XVI for his remarks on Islam and violence

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060917/...lia_nun_killed


How unfortunate for this to happen. I hope the "brave" and "honorable" men that shot a unarmed nun in the back pay for what they did.

Kind of proves the emporer who Benedict quoted's point, doesn't it?

Ironically, yes it does.... if you've read the whole of the Emporer's discussion - and his fear that the Crusades have introduced a propensity for violence into the Muslim faith, and changed 'Jihad' from holy struggle to holy war.

The Emporer and the scholar were in discussion of what changes had been wrought in the Muslim faith since the writing of Sura 2, 256: ""There is no compulsion in religion", and how violence as a compulsion to conversion had been introduced into both Christian and Muslim faiths.

It was both a theological and practical debate, as the Byzantine Empire was rapidly falling before the advance of the Ottomans. The Emporer was musing whether or not Christianity had wrought it's own distruction in the East.

Where are the moderate Muslims here? You'd think that if they were so against these acts of violence that they'd hold some counter-demonstrations, or things of that nature. Any GC Muslims want to weigh in on this?

I'm here. I'll weight on this one. This is a first I've heard of the nun, and it's despicable what the militia did---it's sickening. I have to read the article more.

On the whole Pope thing. Personally, I've seen it discussed on CNN ad neasum. To be honest with you, I'm just satisfied that the pope did apologize, but I don't think it was rally-worthy cause. Yes, it did hurt that the Pope would say something like that because the muslim community and the Pope had a good interfaith relationship. Now, I don't know anyone who's gone and rallied, but most people I know just brushed it off--which is something we've been doing alot of lately.

PS: I don't speak for the "moderate" muslims (and there is no designated moderate muslim leader that does speak for them FYI). So I can't tell you what you want to hear, unfortunately. Just my POV.

I don't know why people don't understand that there's nothing "holy" about war.

There are Muslims that did accept the apology. It's acceptable to me. That's all I can say though, I can't speak for all Muslims.

Could you perhaps explain why there are no counter-demonstrations sending a message such as "Stop embarassing us you jackasses" to the extremists? Is it because moderates are not really organized? Or is it because moderates fear retribution themselves?

I suspect the organization. That and moderates don't tend to believe that demonstrations DO anything. I base this off my experience as a moderate watching my more liberal and conservative friends protest the war in Iraq and/or set up a table across from the protest saying "support our troops" Neither side made a damn bit of difference about the other sides feelings, or the moderates in the middle.

Standing up and saying "stop" is just getting attention and will not likely "stop" anyone

I'm not muslim, however, I think your last statement probably hits the nail on the head. In my mind, if I were a muslim who disagreed with the extremists I would probably want to fly under the radar. Making myself a target of crazy extremists wouldn't seem like a really good (or safe) choice. Just my opinion though.

Edited to add: I'm not sure if "moderate" is the right word to be using. I think someone could be very religious without being violent. Just a thought :)

No. The other GCers did a pretty good job though.

Wait - do Christian groups really get 'outspoken' or hold marches, etc. when a Christian radical does something ridiculous?

Were there marches and letters and massive anti-radical movements when, say, a radical Christian shot an abortion doctor? Did I somehow miss rallies decrying IRA violence?

I'm not even trying to compare apples-to-apples, but I wonder if we're asking something of the Muslim community that we've really seen before - or is Kevin's point that this requires more than what's been seen in the past?

I guess my question could be simplified to:
Are we holding mainstream Muslims to a higher standard when we ask what they are doing to counteract crimes by radicals?

I think that by expecting them to protest the actions of the "extremists" it is definitely holding them to a higher standard than we hold any other group. With regards to your Christian radical comparison, that's very interesting...I never really made that connection before. I assume that the rest of the world would be able to see that the actions of a radical are not those which speak for the entire Christian community. As a result I wouldn't think it would be necessary for the mainstream to protest. It's interesting that mainstream Muslims don't get the same sort of assumption in their favor.

Maybe protesting is fine but when did Allah give the right to kill?:confused:

If this Pope quoted something from the Crusades and it was a big deal, why would He do that anyway?

Defying The Crazies of any Religious Fanatics is rightous.

Killing in the name of Allah is against any teaching isn't it?:confused:

I think I'd expect a different reaction from mainstream Christianity if extremism, killing, terrorism, etc. began to be accepted more generally as proper Christian things to do. I don't think the two are really comparable.

The IRA was/is more a nationalist movement than a religious one, so I don't really think that's an on-point comparison.

I guess it depends on where you're coming from. The Muslims I know don't accept extremism, killing or terrorism as "proper" and I don't think that a majority of the Muslims in the world do either.

YES. :)

Rather I think it's because the Christian world accepts and understands that there are a myriad of different interpretations and denominations under the "Christian" umbrella - so it it is much easier for us to dismiss extreme or radical elements as just that, elements not representatives of a monolithic faith. If we understood, or viewed Islam in the same light, then we can understand how a) the Popes words are seen as a statement representative of Christianity by Muslims, and b) the more varied reaction to the statements - I see the lack of those protesting as more impactful than those protesting...

Your just deluding yourself if you believe this... afterall how many IRA terrorists where Non-Catholics? The IRA selected targets based on faith, and made retaliation killings based of faith - so why not label them a religious terrorist organisation?


PS> Does anyone else see it as incredibly hypocritical to quote from a Crusade-era text decrying violence in the name of Islam, or the spreading of faith by the sword?

Just an FYI.

Her bodyguard was also shot and killed in the incident. He was Somali. And Muslim.

It might also help to know that Mogadishu is the most dangerous city in Somalia. With the gang of warlords recently kicked out and the ICU (the "islamic" militia) taking full control of the city, it was not a) safe for foreigners b) it's even worse for missionaries. Not long ago, a reporter was also killed in the area. She was warned to leave the area by the Italian government. She was taking a big risk being in the region - what with the militia walking around with ak47s.

While the news might be devastating, when you look at the surrounding circumstances [including today's assasination attempt at the president], it is not all that surprising for something like this to occur.

Not as hypocritical as this:

Al-Qaida in Iraq and its allies said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as "the worshipper of the cross," saying "you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose the 'jizya' tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (being killed by) the sword."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060918/...a/muslims_pope

Why is it hypocritical? Al-Qeida is a terrorist organization. The pope is not.

ETA: since when did terrorist organizations speak for the religion?

You just beat me to the punch. I was about to say the same thing.

... and this statement differs how from Crusader texts? To quote from Christain Crusader texts as a source decrying the use of violence within Islam is profoundly hypocritical - or do you believe that the Crusaders didn't adovacate violence, forced conversions, wholesale slaughter of populations, destruction of all non-Christian sites... and in the case of some: desicatration of dead, rape, and even canabalism as valid tactics?

I don't think anyone is qualified to comment on how "appropriate" or not the Pope's comments were until they've read or heard all of those comments in their entirety. Everyone here is doing what the Muslim extremists did: passing judgement on a couple of sentences out of a much longer speech. I'll take Shortcuts in Current Intellectual Discourse for 500, Alex.

A quick search on Google turns up the following:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be...nsburg_en.html

That's just plain insane and ridiculous.

It is bad enough when they punish the group for the transgressions of one of its individuals. But this is beyond evil.

meh... I'm viewing the comments in light of the Pope's history of comments (as a Cardinal and Bishop) concerning both Islam and Muslim culture...

Besides if the Pope wanted to decry violence within a faith, why didn't he speak to the Catholic Church's past with regards to violence - afterall that is something with which he could speak to as a moral and academic expert.

OK, and you got this history....where? The CBC? Or from his books and essays (in print or the Internet)? Personal communication from the man himself? Each of these sheds a different light on such "history".

It still doesn't address the issue: you are taking a few sentences here and there and passing a sweeping judgement. Just like the extremists do.

Oh you mean kinda like how others pass judgments about muslims because of the actions of terrorists?

Exactly! It's just as wrong and academically cheap.

A variety of sources, including interviews and theological papers he's written (remember he did teach as a professor for a while) - one of the primary sources would be his views on rejecting membership to Turkey into the EU because of their Muslim culture and faith...

However there are a number of academic papers he has written with regards to the theological history of the Church during the Crusades; some published in Speculum under his secular name (prior to his Cardinalship), and others circulated to centres of Mediaeval study & research (such as PIMS - Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies). After becoming Pope, many of these articles and published views were examined in a series of seminars and lectures presented by PIMS... to which I was both an attendee, and the host in some cases...

Ah, cool! So you're not one of the people who gets all of their info from Reuters. I'm glad to stand corrected on that.
I'm sure you understood my concern, though - the biggest source of misunderstanding on topics like this is the dreaded sound-bite.

When I have a month or so I'll try to delve into the speech I linked to above. Then maybe I'll fell comfortable diving into the topic.

Have a good night.

Thanks,

Anyways it was one of the concerns raised at some of these seminars, that the new Pope's theological and personal feelings would differ significantly enough from JPII's, that the reaching out to other faiths and inter-faith dialouge would suffer.

From the Op-Ed pages around the world:
http://cagle.com/news/PopeRemarks/main.asp

Slain nun was willing to die to help Somalia's poor, colleagues say
 

By ELIZABETH A. KENNEDY/Associated Press Writer
Published: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:02 AM CDT
E-mail this story | Print this page

NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) - Sister Leonella Sgorbati, who was slain outside a hospital where she worked as a missionary in Somalia's restive capital, was remembered Thursday as a devoted nun who was willing to die to help the starving and sick in Africa.

The 65-year-old nun was shot in the back four times Sunday in attack possibly linked to worldwide Muslim anger toward Pope Benedict XVI, who had quoted a Medieval text that characterized some of the teachings of Islam's founder as ‘‘evil and inhuman.'' Her bodyguard also was killed.

‘‘She was ever so generous,'' Sister Rose, her colleague at the Consolata Sisters of Kenya, said at a funeral that drew hundreds of mourners. ‘‘In the end, she gave her whole life. May the sacrifice of her life contribute to the peace of the world and of Somalia in particular.''

The nun's death, followed a day later by Somalia's first suicide bombing, raised fears of rising extremist violence in Somalia after more than 15 years of anarchy. The Islamic fundamentalists who control Mogadishu and much of southern Somalia have denied responsibility.

Born Rosa Sgorbati in Italy, Sister Leonella had lived and worked in Kenya and Somalia for 38 years. She and her bodyguard were shot as the two walked the 30 feet from the Mogadishu hospital to the sister's home, where three other nuns were waiting to have lunch with her.

There was no claim of responsibility for the attack, which came hours after a leading Somali cleric condemned the pope's Sept. 12 remarks.

Bishop Giorgio Bertin of Djibouti, who also serves as the apostolic administrator of Mogadishu, said Sister Leonella had a sense of naiveté, but she knew the dangers of her job. She used to joke that there was a bullet with her name engraved on it.

‘‘We can call her a martyr,'' Bertin said of the nun, who witnesses say muttered the words ‘‘I forgive, I forgive,'' in Italian after being shot. ‘‘Of course, she is not the only martyr, at least in my experience, in Somalia. But I hope she will be the last of the martyrs for Somalia.''

The increasing power of Somalia's fundamentalist rulers has coincided with a wave of killings of foreign workers and moderate Somali intellectuals.

Among them were Swedish journalist, Martin Adler, who was killed in June during a demonstration in Mogadishu and prominent Somali peace activist Abdulkadir Yahya Ali, who was slain a month later. BBC journalist Kate Peyton was shot to death last year.

The Islamic group, which is accused of having ties to al-Qaida, has all but wrested control from the weak and factional Somali government. With it has come a hard-line Taliban-style rule complete with public floggings and executions. Its leaders have pledged to wage holy war against a peacekeeping force that is supposed to arrive early next month to help stabilize the country.

The United States has accused the Islamic group of sheltering suspects in the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden has portrayed Somalia as a battleground in his war on the U.S.