Numbers Determine Top Houses?
 

Big question to discuss, how important are numbers on a campus? Does the top house always have the best numbers, are low numbers indicative of failure, will small chapters remain small, while large chapters remain large? A large part of a group's reputation is derived on how they do during rush, and that will stay with them through the year even though they may be doing better than most other houses.

Good topic. But, something tells me this is going to get nasty real quick. lol

That being said: At some campuses, the largest houses will automatically be considered the best - "Alpha Beta has over 100 members. They have the best guys! Gamma Delta Epsilon only has 40 guys. What's their problem?"

At some campuses, getting a large pledge class doesn't necessarily mean they got the best. One fraternity on my undergrad campus constantly got the largest classes. But, the joke about that was that they would take anyone. Some groups concentrate on getting decent guys and don't worry about the numbers. The largest group on my campus is now one of the smallest groups. They were huge for years and now are struggling. We were small, but concentrated on getting quality guys. It ended up paying off and while we don't get the largest class (and don't want to), we get great guys and have a great rep on campus and nationally. Our numbers have went from 30-40 to around 60-70. A decent size for my old campus.

But if a group doesn't pull in the amount of guys they were aiming for, say the largest group on your campus who had open bidding only took 10 guys when they were aiming for 40. While the smallest group only took 4 guys, when they were aiming for 25. Do numbers supercede a reputation that is established taking into consideration that freshman are new to campus and have limited knowledge on the different houses?

Yes, numbers sometime supercede reputation and vice versa.

If a group doesn't pull in the number they were aiming for? What's the extra factor? Did they set a number that was unrealistic for their chapter/campus? Did not as many guys go through rush? Both of these can happen. Or, did they invite a large number of guys to their final pre-bid party and only a few accepted bids the next day? If it is the last version, then something is definately up whether it is a group's rep or another fraternity had a great rush and took guys that the other group would normally get.

Although nobody asked, for an NPHC-oriented opinion..... :)

I'm of the mindset that numbers=success among NPHC fraternities. (Not really for sororities, though)

I know of one fraternity on my undergrad campus that went from no members to about 20 members over the course of a few years. During the same period, one fraternity which consistently had about one member dropped off to none, though they're coming back.

I don't think, in the case of this fraternity, they take everyone. I think they had some real hard workers who made the effort to be enthusiastic about their fraternity, wear letters frequently, cultivated positive relationships with sorority women and independent women, and oh yes, they could step their asses off. Along with all this, they had strong alumni support (both recent and older, including a local news personality) which has recently translated into a foundation being established for the chapter.

In terms of programming and service...well, since i'm in a frat, I don't really notice what they do. :) But I assume that because of the numbers, their programming and service is as tight as their brotherhood.

The key, for NPHC orgs, is to not sit back and assume that the interest will come to you. That's a trap that many of our orgs fall into. You have to actively cultivate brotherhood and goodwill among all men. Be a brother to get a brother.

Hopefully everybody's opinion is welcome, whether NPHC or IFC. And, a lot of IFC chapters fall into the trap also. They think that because they were the largest chapter that everybody will come to them. Then, one bad rush following another - you won't know what hit you.

"Be a brother to get a brother" - That's one of the best ways that I've heard it put.

What may be as or more important is how well a chapter does with retention of those pledges. While some chapters might pull in a lot of pledges, they can have a significant number drop and that can be indicative of failure as well.

Numbers are considered and talked about among pledge classes and actives alike. And they are important.

But that discussion really only matters within certain limits.

Where I went to school, a pledge class size could indicate that a fraternity in a certain tier might be rising or falling within its general "ranking".

And yet if a low tier fraternity of large size takes a big pledge class, it does not necessarily mean anything to the local social order.

Generally speaking, at a given school sororities will tend to be fewer in number and larger in size than fraternities.

So getting numbers is often about having the funds and size to be able to have mixers with sororities. Aside from that consideration, a fraternity's size is not all that important. It is the quality of the guys you take that matters.

Social standing matters too, of course, but numbers can tip the scales for houses that are in a position where their ability to mix with certain sororities is in question.

Not to discount NHPC, there seems to be a different mind set on how recruitment is, correct?

In Schools where there are NHPC Chapters, the numbers or low except HBC/U such as Langston, Brown, Howard, NC A& T,etal.

There will always be stronger Chapters but in retrospect, they to can fall from grace becasue of stupidity. Charters or removed and so are the Chapters. It hurts no one but themselves does it?

Granted in each part of the Country each is toataly different, but still have to report to eachs HQs.

Not every School is going to be signicant other than inside their little area.

There are other parts of the country that have Chapters and follow the rules and regulations.

PNM Numbers do not mean a thing!

They only mean something when the are Initiated and stay to work for the Chapter and grow.

I would respond to your post, but you continue to disrespect the name of the NPHC. I have asked you about this MANY times in the past. Furthermore, "low" is relative. A twenty man Alpha chapter at an HBCU might be high; but at the same school, ten might be high for the Sigmas.

But you continue to downplay NPHC organizations every time I enter a discussion, so whatever.

Second part first....on those campuses where Kappa, Iota, and/or Alpha are on both the local IFC it is moreso for goodwill. I am not too aware of local IFC policies on recruitment, so I can't address the "total" issue there...

However, "total" is very rare among local NPHCs. We usually call them "line caps." Quite honestly, the only orgs that line caps affect are AKA and Delta on large HBCU campuses where they could easily get over a hundred members.

"Recruitment" for us is really selection and intake. There are some similarities between how NPHC fraternities look for candidates and how NIC fraternities "rush" informally. In both processes, the members pretty much already know who they want, NPHCs because the aspirant has expressed an interest already (usually).

I know of only a few campuses that had some sort of IFC quota for formal rush. But I have never heard of a chapter total being applied to IFC. This doesn't mean that some campus may not have it, just that I am not aware of it. Now, individual chapters may decide to set a total for their chapter membership or for their pledge class. But not due to it being IFC mandated.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you at this point.

I never disrespect another Greek Organization. I may not understand them as much as I try, but I at least have a point.

When a friend of mine agrees when we discuss this same topic, I am supposed feel he is wrong also?


Some say I disrespect other GLOs, well, they are totally wrong and ask them to prove it!:mad: Oh, and you included.

I am always glad when I hear of someone who I come in contact with about being a member or asking them if they are going to join and why not if they say no.:)

If this is a new idea, I have never heard of it either.

NIC rules do not include anything like this.

Maybe the local IFC does, but I am not sure how they can get away with it?

You never misspell NIC.

You never misspell IFC.

You ALWAYS misspell NPHC and I have asked you repeatedly to observe the proper spelling.

Do it once, it's rude, but can be forgiven. Do it numerous times, it's blatant disrespect.

And for the record, I agree with everyone else on GC who has accused you of being disrespectful of orgs other than NIC fraternities.

You're welcome.

In fact, I will start a new thread about it.

There was a thread on this a few years back. But I can't find it.

A few years back, Oklahoma IFC had a cap on the number of pledges each chapter could take through formal rush. I think it was like 50. Any chapter that took over the number, was assessed a fine for each pledge over. There was some controversy cause one chapter said "fine", pledged up in the 70s and paid their fine. I believe that Arkansas either had something similar in place, or was thinking about it.

As usual, when you get a compliment you have to be a smart ?

Your s--- does get tedious at the very least.:rolleyes:

How is misspelling NPHC on many occasions complimentary?

We can go head up, Tom, and you will never prove that you have been consistently respectful to organizations outside the ones most like your own.

You seem to believe in universal truths about fraternities when it is clear that some things are relative.

I choose to bring in the NPHC perspective on certain topics and I should be able to do so without you checking behind my posts and dismissing them.

I am sick of you. Please put me on ignore.

SAD:(

It's hard to say.

I think that rarely will the best house on campus have low numbers compared to everyone on campus. Of course, it depends what you measure the best house on campus with.

The best house could be the largest or it could be in the middle of the pack numbers wise. I will say that for the most part that the best house will get the most quality guys-the guys that they want-and be compariable to everyone else on campus.

Although even the best house can screw off and drop the ball a semester.

Yes they can and it happens a lot.:(

Big numbers never deem a best house situation.

One can have a huge house, but if they are screw ups, well that should say it all.

As the Marines always say give me a few good men!:)

I agree with you Coramoor. But I will take your last line a bit farther. Yes, one can drop "the ball" for a semester/term (et al) but someone better be smart and fast enough to pick it back up. From what I have seen and heard, does not take all too long for a long,hard, fast fall..........

unfortunately, while the "best" fraternties are the ones with the best men, the best in the eyes of outsiders (and many insiders) is almost always dependant on numbers, especially in a thoroughly greek infused campus. I am at a campus where half of the houses are at or above 80 members, reaching upwards of 150. and the other half of the houses are at or less than 35 members. While amongst the leaders of the different organizations (fraternities in my case), there is mutual respect for each other's efforts, among the general chapters, as well as outside eyes, the smaller chapters are CLEARLY lesser chapters.

I believe that smaller chapters do have it much harder as a mediocre member can truly ruin a semester and even a chapter. Whereas it would take a complete idiot to take down a significantly larger chapter. It's just a game of percentages...

I agree with this from the experiences I had at my campus. The houses that routinely took the largest pledge classes seldom had the "best" overall pledge class. In order to reach the largest numbers, they were willing to bid guys that the "best" houses wouldn't touch.

I know of at least one house where their rush strategy was seriously "once we get 3 or 4 really good guys, just do what it takes to fill the rest of the class" Early on in the summer (we do summer informal rush almost exclusively), lots of good guys would be fairly high on this particular chapter, and then by the end, top guys who had waited to sign wouldn't even be considering them, and their remaining signees were pretty poor in comparison to the guys they were signing early on.

The top houses at my campus were consistent year to year in the number of guys they pledged, regardless of how many guys went through rush. The bottom houses were affected most by rush numbers, going through some really lean years when numbers were down. The largest houses were simply content to lower their standards to ensure getting a large class, and b/c of their size they were able to attract a fair number of guys who were between them and the "lower" houses.

I don't think chapter total or pledge line cap would fly with most IFC fraternities. In fact, I know it wouldn't. We don't have to give bids to anyone, or we can give bids to everyone. I think either extreme is bad, but whatever, we decidie who gets a bid. It usually helps to go find them, especially at a campus where greeks are typically seen in a negative light.

Billy, you hit the nail on the head.

Whe a Chapter recrutes big numbers and then do not Initiate them, whose fault is it?

Guessing a lot depends on the School of course, BIG isnt everything including, Numbers and House. It may look good from the outside, but inside, it is scrambled eggs and a mess to clean up.

But, the idea is to recruite the right members for your organization, not just bodies.

I consider a pledge class of over 55 to be too big. Any more and the house is taking sorority numbers.

LOL, I often wondered how close these Chapters are? Who doesn't know who or even if they are members of said group!