Hazing. Is it necessary?
 

O.K. Who pledged old skool and who pledged new skool. In other words did you get hazed? Also how long was your pledge period? Last but not least do you think hazing is necessary?

Do a search. This topic has been discussed a lot.

Yes, hazing is necessary.

A LOT.

I am definitely old school.
I was hazed.
It is NOT necessary.
It's also not smart.
It is illegal.

Especially in the Risk Management/hazing forum :)

It IS necessary....you are obviously not old school......it depends on what is being done. I'm not talking about beating pledges and forcing them to drink and such. This however....has been beat to death in the other forum....so I don't really care.

It's real likely that I've been around the Greek System since before your were born and seen it change a lot over those years.

I've also seen the damage that hazing can do first hand as an advisor and Division officer.

I've watched us try to self-destruct, and local and state governments and university administrations step into the process.

Due to the above, I've seen national organizations have to be reactive and then proactive.

In a few years, let's take a look back and see what happened.

A few years from now schools will be making fraternities fill quotas for minorities and homosexuals.

Yes I pledged, and it was hard.

Is "hazing" necessary? Yes, but only parts of Hazing. Hazing is defined so broadly that anything can be considered hazing.

The reality is you can NOT have a strong organization if anyone can just walk in with out sacrificing any time, etc to gain that membership. That is called a club.

Fraternities are where they are today because of the brotherhood built between members and the leaders that they create. This can't be accomplished if you don't feel a sense of brotherhood within the organization.

Now, am I advocating for stupid stuff? No, not at all. Doing callisthenics (sp?) should not be hazing. Memorizing your organizations history should not be hazing. Having to greet brothers should not be hazing. Making someone drinkg 2 litres of vodka should be hazing.

The reality is we all rationalize what we do to our pledges, or else they wouldn't do it. We all say what we are doing has a purpose. You can find meaning in anything. But it is important that the meaning is relevant, the means is safe, and the message is clear.

I went to stophazing.org and found a list of activities that are considered hazing. It goes without saying that I don't agree with violence, harrassment, or humiliation, and for the purposes of this discussion, I will assume that no one on GC agrees with those things, either. So I want to focus on "Subtle Hazing" define below:



A. SUBTLE HAZING:
Behaviors that emphasize a power imbalance between new members/rookies and other members of the group or team. Termed “subtle hazing” because these types of hazing are often taken-for-granted or accepted as “harmless” or meaningless. Subtle hazing typically involves activities or attitudes that breach reasonable standards of mutual respect and place new members/rookies on the receiving end of ridicule, embarrassment, and/or humiliation tactics. New members/rookies often feel the need to endure subtle hazing to feel like part of the group or team. (Some types of subtle hazing may also be considered harassment hazing).

Some Examples:

* Deception
* Assigning demerits
* Silence periods with implied threats for violation
* Deprivation of privileges granted to other members
* Requiring new members/rookies to perform duties not assigned to other members
* Socially isolating new members/rookies
* Line-ups and Drills/Tests on meaningless information
* Name calling
* Requiring new members/rookies to refer to other members with titles (e.g. “Mr.,” “Miss”) while they are identified with demeaning terms
* Expecting certain items to always be in one's possession



I'll be honest....I've experienced all of those things to some degree in every fraternal process I've been through, with the exception of "name calling" and being called anything demeaning.

I have not decided if experiencing these things made me a better member of my fraternities.....nor do I know if I am worse off. I do believe that anyone can do these things if they want to be a member badly enough. On one line, one girl was never really seen again after she crossed. (As was the case on my mom's DST line) And I'm not especially close to my Alpha LBs. Hey, it is what it is.

I do think that aspirants of any organizations should receive some sort of rite of passage, if for no other reason than to receive ritualistic and philosophical lessons outside of the ritual, which I received in each process I was in.

Much of what I did do had meaning...metaphorical, allegorical, etc. Some of it was just for fun.

Was I hazed? By the definition of subtle hazing, yes, I was.

I'm a hazer (according to this definition)
 

OMG I'm a hazer!!!!! I think the definition of hazing has gotten so ridiculous.

I agree with much of what has been posted above. I particularly agree that the definition(s) is (are) stupid.

But, there's still a problem.

Depending on the state and/or campus, whether we agree with it or like it or not...

It's Still Illegal!
(Is that so hard to understand?)

That being the case, if you get caught you may lose your charter. If something unfortunate happens, no insurance company will honor a claim if the law has been broken.
(I don't understand why that is hard to understand either)

In my sorority, we do not haze at all. no matter what. new members do not have to do anything if they don't want to. the only thing they need to do is complete a new member education class. and even then there isn't a test or quiz and we never ask on the spot information. the point is, the girls should want to know these things. they should want to do things with us. if they didn't we would have realized they weren't interested in the sorority during recruitment and would have never given then a bid.

For me, the difference is that, as the example about the old Bavarian horn thing, that club was about hunting, so yeah, the members should know how to hunt. But making a girl do calisthenics, or my house cleaning or whatever else goes on (i don't pretend to know) doesn't prove to me that she is going to support me in a time of need, or be good at helping out at our benefit car wash, or bond with me during a retreat.

If a girl isn't going to do these things, even if not with me but one of my sisters, then i think she'd be smart enough not to join. maybe this is just because on my campus, sorority membership doesn't equal a status symbol. if you don't want to help with our philanthropies, participate in campus activities with us or become our sister, then don't join. knowing what the sorority does and everything it entails and still saying "yes, i want to be apart of this." is enough for me.

A lot of what is considered hazing is also dependent on the org. A lot of what has been described as "subtle hazing" is silly. For instance, in Alpha Phi Omega, pledges are not supposed to wear letters (except for a pledge pin), does that mean we're hazing them because we're depriving them of privileges granted to other members?

I do not condone physically assaulting or mentally terrorizing someone as a membership requirement but I do not think that requiring a pledge to always have her/his pin and book is hazing.

I am new school I guess you would say. I say I was hazed but on such a small scale, but for hte most part we were not hazed. I do think that hazing is a good idea but with some caution in mind. I think helps in a manhood, brotherhood combination for trust and loyalty

Regardless. Hazing is not good by GLO Standards via All GLOs Web Sites.

While We may not think of it that way, that is the way it is.

Either do what HQs say, that is really the way. If Your HQ does not agree witrh that then someone:o is in trouble!

National GLO's are killing the greek system. I understand some of their obligations, but it'd be nice if we could somehow distribute the liability in order to allow local groups to act more as their own entity.

I hate nationals

Not really. My chapter operates on a campus where many other groups do haze, and they haze pretty hard. It's part of the culture here in Oklahoma, and it's what kids expect when they come through Rush.

On one hand, we do let them know that we don't haze. On the other hand, pledging is still no picnic. We follow the rules, we keep them busy, and I absolutely feel that they earn their letters while developing a strong appreciation for our chapter, and the organization at large.

Without hazing, our chapter does pretty well on a campus where hazing is (or at least was when I was there) the norm.

It's absolutely true that hazing works. Fortunately, so do other things. Paintballing, ropes courses, sports, all of those things bring those classes together.

We're still very selective, we put plenty of guys into campus leadership positions, do well in intramurals, Greek Week, etc. We do it without hazing though, in any way shape or form. Anything that the pledge marshal does is vetted through our hazing policy.

So does hazing work? Sure. Is it absolutely necessary? Not from what I've seen.

sorry- another long post
 

You have raised an excellent point- and one I should have elaborated on earlier.

In the hunting horn example I provided, becoming an accomplished hunter was the ultimate goal- along with being part of a social club of hunters.

So the "hazing" in that story was geared toward a specific purpose. It was dangerous- far more dangerous than what many pledges go through- but it served a valid purpose, and in a context of a faraway time it has a certain "rite of passage" sense about it that I think many who reject college fraternity hazing would appreciate and understand.

And so the obvious question is, what is the fraternity going to do for you if you pledge? What does your association with this house mean? What does the brotherhood care about?

If the goals are right- then I think the hazing will naturally tend to take a better course (except for isolated incidents as I have mentioned above.)

Many top fraternity chapters- even at "party schools"- that haze and have the best parties with top sororities are stringent in their GPA requirements and in how their pledges and brothers behave towards ladies. Some also put emphasis on philanthropy and intramural sports. Being old skool does not mean a brotherhood fails to consider the world outside the sphere of existence 3 feet around a keg of beer.

However, many fraternity chapters (and sororities) are all about getting wasted and finding someone to spend the night with.

Consider both of those scenarios.

And then consider that hazing as defined by law (i.e.- including forced study hours and other things that are in no way detrimental to a pledge) is a vital part of the bonding process that makes a brotherhood.

If you find out the reputation of the fraternities you seek to join before you rush (a very important thing to do), then you have some idea of what the brotherhood over there is really all about.

And then I think you can anticipate very clearly the kind of hazing you might possibly face (again keeping in mind I am talking the full legal definition- not just the really bad stuff that is truly hazing) and what purpose it will serve.

All that said, DeltAlum and Tom Earp bring up the very real fact that hazing in all forms is against the law. There are good sides to this, and there are also practical realities.

But I think hazing is over-sensationalized and has become so absurdly defined that it misses the real problem, and creates an additional problem by making a true brotherhood that really means something nearly impossible to achieve within the confines of the rules.

The real goal is to recruit people who will promote a balanced brotherhood that stresses academics (fraternity houses SHOULD exceed the all-men's GPA at their schools, sororities too for the all-women's GPA), philanthropy (the duty of all men and women who can afford to drop several thousand dollars a year on a Greek membership), and being respectful people ready to enter the work environment as leaders.

The parties and fun times are a given- all college kids do that to whatever extent they want- but the other should be stressed too.

Being a Greek is about preparing to be a leader. One of the best lessons I learned in my fraternity was the art of having a big fight with a fellow brother in chapter meeting over a proposed rule or pledge- and then being able to go have a beer with him and watch the game 30 minutes later. This has nothing to do with how much I got hazed, but about what our brotherhood considered important and how the behavior of the actives helped mold all of us when we were pledges.

If a brotherhood has a more balanced goal in mind and purpose, then the really dangerous hazing incidents become less problematic (though they are already fairly rare) and there is no need to hold difficult-to-enforce and inappropriate laws over the heads of every member of the Greek Community.

Hazing is a reflection of the members of a chapter. If those members like to party, but also care about getting good grades and being successful in their careers- then they aren't going to sadistically torture pledges or take up so much of their time that the pledges can't do well in their classes.

But we are a privileged minority with a media that does not like us. So it is up to us to go out of our way to fix this mess. I ride off-road motorcycles and we have the same trouble. No politician is going to defend our rights to make responsible use of public lands for riding (we police our own behavior pretty strictly in riding clubs) because there are so few of us and a loud screaming environmental movement on the other side who are playing on power and emotion instead of facts.

Greeks face the same reality. It would be ideal to get rid of hazing laws. The most serious forms of hazing that demand legal action are already covered under criminal law- alcohol possession, assault etc. So we don't need a law that covers all the things which should not be criminal in a voluntary organization.

But good luck finding a politician to vote for that bill when the other side is going to bring out a weeping mother who lost a child. That mother has every right to be upset, but it is an unfair incarnation of an isolated incident that is designed to force the will of one segment of America on a smaller segment.

The actual enforcement of hazing law suggests that my view is shared by most- even though they cannot afford to publicly admit it (which I respect- my presence here is anonymous precisely so I can speak freely)- but it would be nice if we did not all have to do this dance.

I am pretty sure hazing is pretty non-existent at OU. FIJI does pretty hard, but that is about it as far as I know. SAE doesn't at all. They do house cleans and that is it.

...I was also told that Sigma Nu is one of the worst houses on campus. It may have not been like that when you were there. But it is now.

I didn't go to OU.

I went to Central Oklahoma. Enrollment there is about 15,000. There are six fraternities, average size is probably around 35. The guys at OU should be doing a little better in the future. The alums just dumped about 1.5 million into the house, it's pretty nice. A few good rushes, and they'll be back. They have the financial resources to compete with anyone.

When you say hazing is pretty non-existent, do you mean in terms of hazing as defined by law or hazing in terms of what someone Greek might think? (which in itself can vary greatly)

Just wanted to clarify and ask all who post here to please indicate how you define hazing since it will help all to understand where posters are coming from.

I would say someone who is Greek might think. I'm sure you know what that probobly entails.....especially being at UGA and Texas.

:cool:

One of the things that most of us agree on -- or at least used to -- is that it's really bad form to trash talk another persons fraternity, sorority or chapter thereof.

I still agree on that. It just makes you look bad, especially if you were just "told" about someone else's opinion. It really flushes away any kind of intelligence or credibility you may have once had. Most problems in any Greek system come from uneducated gossipers who don't know when to stop yapping.

True that it is a long post, but is more true than many want to appreiate.

We as Social GLOs are under the gun from many saides and it is up to us to make the changes now before thay are made for us with more and more stringent rules and higher costs.

We hear everyday about Chapters being close and for what? HAZING.

Who does it benefit?

Not the Chapters who are closed and the PNMs who may join and make that Chapter grow.

HQs as they bare called are ruled by the Members who are those Brothers?Sisters who vote on the rules and regulations.

i cna only speak for LXA, but, I am sure most if not all HQs have a admentment in their Rules and regulations about hazing.

Either follow what you fellow Brother/Sisters voted on or you will be gone.

So, as I stated above, who loses?:o

I really don't care. Sigma Nu at OU is horrible. Kind of like DKE here at Texas......which is awful too. If someone gets butthurt over me talking about the bad chapters at different schools.......then they need to seriously grow a pair.

Sorry, but I am not one to say , "oh......well......some chapters are good in their own respects. Each chapter on campus is better in some ways than others."

....bullshit. The bad chapters are bad. All-around bad.


Besides all of this....I wasn't trash talking his fraternity. Sigma Nu is pretty badass at a couple big SEC schools if I am not mistaken. I know they are one of the tops at Ole Miss.

Hey, Minnesota, I wasn't gossiping....its a fact. I live in Texas, go to UT, and know plenty of people at OU. I am pretty well informed and have visited there plenty of times. KTSnake didn't even go there.....so it really doesn't matter.

.....explain to me how talking about a shi**y chapter at a particular school "flushes away my intelligence." I am plenty "educated", but thanks though. I don't make blanket statements about places that I have no idea about.

I haven't been down to the OU chapter in a couple of years. They were a good bunch of guys. The house has a hell of a lot of history behind it (1, maybe 2 Heisman winners), and a hell of a lot of wealthy alums. They were definitely top tier until they were brought down by (amazingly) an incident which would have been averted had the brothers at the time been practicing a little risk management.

No offense taken though, if you want to judge on numbers alone, they could be better. I will tell you though -- the guys I know from that chapter are solid guys, and because of the alum support, they are all very well connected.

If nothing else, they serve as a reminder as to how it's very difficult to get to the top, and very easy to crash to the bottom. As I said though, they really have been clawing their way back up the ladder.

No, I agree with you. SAE had it happen to them too at OU. If I am not mistaken they had a little incident a while back that hurt them severely for a long time. Took them a few years to get back up there.

My cousin was an SAE up there back in the early 90's. It was a pretty good house then as far as I knew. Today, SAE is one of the top chapters at OU as far as I know.

Well, I know they had a hazing incident from what my friend who is an SAE there told me. It was bad. One of the worst I have heard of. I am not really sure when exactly it was.......but I know he said it was the main reason why they don't haze anymore....at all. Housecleans, member interviews, and pledge meetings is all they do.

Oh. I'm new to this forum. I see the search at the top now. My bad.:o
Well....I guess a new hazing discussion is open now:)

I'm old skool, in fact my line did the whole above ground Scroller marching, bald heads, shades, hoodies and Scroller gear. In fact I still have one of my Scroller white t-shirts. It's in bad shape but I still have it. It says Scroller in red letters. Most of it was done underground though. I loved marching above ground b/c of the crowd of people it drew, and it was something I always wanted to do. We never got caught because with the following line everything was done underground.

We pledged for 16 weeks. I'm still very close to my 5 Sands, and we still talk and see each other when we can. I was fortunate to have a close line. I do think the hard pledging forced us to be close.

I don't really agree with the hard core hazing, though it happend to me. I agree with the man of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity. I think it should be light weight. I don't think someone should skate in either though.

Last but not least, though I don't think the body should be abused, what the six of us went through has really made me love my frat dearly. I've been greek for 15 years now and I appreciate it and love it like I just made it over yesterday. I think that if I didn't work for it, I probably wouldn't appreciate it as much as I do today. Kappa Alpha Psi til the day I die.

Abusing the body is wrong. I endured what I did, because I don't believe in quitting any goals I start.

I think everyone made some very valid points.

For the most part I have no idea what the above person said...but I'm sure it made sense to some.

Regardless, I'll confirm on the Sigma Nu thing, they are very good at Auburn.

Oh. You must be outside of the Divine 9. I guess it wouldn't make sense to you. What organization are you a member of?

So much for my concept of the "Southern Gentleman."

By the way, our son's freshman year suitemate at OU is a Sigma Nu. He's a great kid, a National Merit Scholar with a dual major in Engineering and Music Performance and nephew of some really good friends of ours from Denver.

So, here's an example of my particular "pair." I don't think you know crap about Sigma Nu at OU except what you may have heard second hand. In any event it's only your opinion, so under the circumstances, cram it and show a little class and respect for your fellow posters.

Oh, and hazing of any kind is still illegal.