Israel at War?
 

What are everyone's thoughts on this. I like the recent political discussion, and this may be one of the most critical periods in foreign policy in recent memory. Considering Israel is fighting a war on basically two fronts, the U.S. is still engaged in Iraq, and the entire world is concerned over Iran and North Korea, it seems a topic worth discussing. The EU said Israel is being too harsh, while the U.S. is of course support the Israelis. Given that Lebanon is now firing rockets into Israeli cities, I think the EU may have spoken early. Thoughts?

This is really scaring me. :-/

I guess I don't feel I should form opinions because I don't really know a LOT about what's going on... but sometimes I wish I could go over to Israel/Palestine and teach them how to share. Seriously.

It's about time that there were serious consequences for these terrorist group leaders. If we're lucky, a lot of them will end up dead, or in prison before someone calls a truce.

I'm really not sure what Israel's end game here is, except to show these people that there are consequences for their attacks. Hamas has been committing these acts of war for years now. Sometimes, when you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

There is no room for discussion about this.

Iran and Syria arm terror groups that kill people all over the world. Two of those terrorist groups are Hamas and Hezbollah. Those two groups kidnapped Israelis. Those two groups are responsible for everything thereafter. If the populations support them, then they should be willing to accept what happens to them also.

Outside of Syria and Iran, a lot of Arab countries have criticized the two terrorist groups.

I hope the Israelis just drop a few bombs over the Syrian president's house and in Qom in Iran without France and Russia being pussies.

-Rudey

The end game is getting back its citizens. The end game is telling the world that Israel left both Gaza and Lebanon and it got attacked by both of them. At any point they could return Israeli citizens that they kidnapped but they haven't.

-Rudey

I'm surprised to see the support for Israel. When I heard what the EU said, I thought the complete opposite...I'm surprised Israel has had this much restraint over the years. I feel bad for Lebanon, they are truly under seige, but I do not disagree with Israel for taking action. What does concern me, and I'm not sure if everyone has heard this since it just recently came out, was the rather haunting warning from Iran about the response they will issue if Israel does bomb Syria. Although, in truth, I don't fear for Israel, I think everyone agrees they can handle themselves.

Who do you feel sorry for in Lebanon? The dwindling Christian population that was killed off and forced to leave and has no power now? Maybe. The country that chose not to put its own troops along the border with Israel and disarm Hezbollah? Not so much. The Christian population is small, the Muslim population is big and they support the terrorists.

Israel is attacking roads and airports that Hezbollah would use to move the kidnapped Israelis into Iran. It's so sad that they'd just do that.

-Rudey

Argghhh, a friend of a friend is stuck in Lebanon right now (he's American). Holy shit.

Well I feel sorry for some of the Lebanese*? like I did some of the Afghani people. However, I still hold their government responsible for not keeping order within their country.

I know it's not going to be popular... but I agree with the EU calling it a "disproportionate force" being used by Israel. Seriously, think about it, the damage and death in Gaza and Lebanon for the sake of 3 Israeli lives? There were a myriad of other options open for the Israelis to recover the first kidnapping victim, but by using a "sledgehammer" response they provoked another kidnapping and more attacks ~ how is this resolving the issue? To me it looks like Israel was looking for an excuse to lay some "smack down" on Gaza and Lebanon... whether to remind them of who's boss; or to keep them destabilzed internally to limit there future threat...

Of course this could be because I'm worried about friends in that are in both Israel and Lebanon... and some of the areas reported hit (again on both sides) are areas that they are living and working in :(

I think the EU is ridiculous. As of now, over 100 missiles have been fired into Israel. I think we're beyond just kidnapping the three people. Lets not forget that a terrorist group crossed into Israel to kidnap their soldiers. This is not a one time thing, these two terrorist groups, Hamas and Hezbollah, have been calling for the end of Israel for years, and have continuously attacked Israel. We don't need a prisoner exchange to end the violence. We need to see the end of Hamas and Hezbollah. I don't buy into the idea that violence only brings more violence. Sometimes violence means game over, and I've got a feeling that Israel has that capability, and I think they should use it. The world will be much better off without these terrorist organizations. I am proud to be one of the few influential countries who sides with Israel, while others simply condone the actions of the terrorists. I saw an interesting interview tonight with Speaker Gingrich, in which he made some valid points. How often does the UN reprimand Hamas? Never. How often do they reprimand Hezbollah? Never. However, anytime Israel responds to the surrounding countries which foster terrorism, the Security Council attempts to reprimand their actions. Thank God the U.S. is there, ready and waiting with veto in hand.

Hold on... you actual believe Newt? :rolleyes:

I wondered how long it would take you to blame the UN...

You know it's funny..I'm reading a headline over at CNN and it says "Dozens of Lebanese killed and 10 Israelis". Isn't the body count of Lebanese civilians as important as Israelis? I guess not.

Trust me,it isn't because of CNN bias. It probably has more to do with the fact that Israel is a very advanced military and can issue casualty counts quickly. Tommorows NY Times headline will probably read "Zionists Slaughter Lebanese Babies."

Despite your personal feelings on Newt, those are nonetheless good points. The UN is largely worthless.

Shinerbock,

Do not tell that CNN is NOT biased, because for the most part it is. It's a waste of time watching it really.

Here's my take: What Israel is doing is not actually looking for their soldiers but taking advantage of the situation to attack. The sad part is, they are targetting civilians instead of the real culprits and the only thing the U.S. president is saying about the matter is "to take it easy on the weak Lebanese gov't..but hey, let's focus on Syria". But personally, I concede with Russia and France on this one. It is excessive use of force, unnecessary, unacceptable and unjust. If Israel is so militarized, why don't they just send out the Israeli Intelligence and take out the real targets. I'm sure they would have no problems finding them, instead of killing civilians to make a point. But hey, we live in the real world, I guess..*sigh*

Dozens sounds more dramatic and garners more support for the Lebanese and makes the Israelis look more bloodthirsty and inhumane.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. Numbers are usually more concrete and unambiguous, where as "dozens" is more general.

Dozens can mean 24 or it can mean 200. People tend to associate dozens with being a higher number.

Yes, CNN is biased. Their slant is liberal, which is generally more prone to condemn Israel.
Regarding your points, I don't see your reasoning. Israel is not targeting civilians, as most of their targets to this point have included the highway that connects Lebanon to Syria, bridges and other transport routes, and the Hezbollah HQ. Meanwhile, Hezbollah has fired 100 missiles into Israel, many into a popular resort city. I don't think they are taking advantage of the situation at all, they are going after their attackers. It isn't just a few people responsible, it is two massive terrorist groups, who are being harbored by Lebanon, Syria and Iran. There is evidence which suggest that Iran National Guard troops actually aided in the firing of missiles into Israel. This is not the same war on terror the United States is in, this is simply a nation-state war. Lets say for example Israel sends Mossad in and gets the people who actually snatched the guy. That solves nothing. You and others are acting as though Syria, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas are countries to be trusted and who are simply responding to what has happened to them. These are terrorist countries. They don't play fair. They don't want soldier release, they want the end of Israel. Israel's only solution to see this violence stop, is to demolish these terror groups.

I agree with you 100%, Rob. As do a lot of people I know in "real life", whose opinions I greatly respect.

While I understand yall's desire to keep this from escalating, I simply cannot understand how you really think Israel could respond and end the conflict. The demands made by Palestine and Hezbollah were to release many prisoners Israel was holding. I cannot fathom how you think 3 soldiers for 100 terrorists is a fair deal. Once again Israel is NOT DEALING WITH NORMAL NATIONS. Iran and Syria are terrorist states. As for the Palestinians, which liberals for some reason have long supported over the Israelis, their former leader, Arafat was one of the biggest terrorists in the world. I don't mean terrorist like some of you say Bush is a terrorist, I mean terrorist like throw a bomb into a crowded building terrorist. I support all and any action Israel uses to secure its citizens. The media is reporting that Israel is dropping leaflets for Lebanese citizens to stay away from Hezbollah strongholds. I'm pretty sure the 100 missiles into Israeli cities didn't have similar citizen warnings. Not only do I hope Israel gets their soldiers back, I hope they entirely destroy Hezbollah and Hamas. If that means killing every last one of the terrorists, so be it.

100% of the Lebanese Muslim population support terrorists, right Rudey?

Those big bad Muslims are everywhere. Be prepared to be beheaded.

Yes for 3 Israeli lives they are willing to kill themselves.

Lay some smack down Rob? They cut Gaza in two to prevent movement of kidnappers and to stop rocket fire. Hezbollah said they planned this for a long time. It was not provoked because of this.

Where was Europe when Lebanon could have mobilized its army along the border so that Hezbollah would leave?

Where was Europe when Syria and Iran funded terror with a wink? Oh yeah they were busy profiting from them.

-Rudey

Lets bring a final solution to Hamas and Hezbollah. You know, peace agreements that don't really bring peace are pretty worthless. Its time.

The Lebanese have determined that their lives are worthless.

They support Hezbollah and want their virgins when they die.

If they value their lives, they shouldn't do this.

Israel should have killed 100 men in the jails every single hour that the kidnappers held an Israeli.

If Europe wants to bargain with the Arabs, let them. But Israel shouldn't have to. Israel is not in Lebanon. The UN has verified the full withdrawal.

-Rudey

I was being cynical. Aside, there never was any peace agreement and military action can only do something for a limited time. Ultimately, political solution will bring sustainable peace in that region. It better come quickly though, the gas price are going off the roof.

I didn't say everyone and everywhere. Also please refrain from calling people darkies. I'm from Iran. You are Asian right? So you really have zero right to call someone a darkie. Your racial intolerance is unacceptable.

-Rudey
--Dirka dirka

Its time to pay up, everyone give me your buck-o-five for your freedom.

Those civilians that pushed out the Christian population? Those civilians that provide support for Hezbollah?

This is an act of war by Lebanon.

Lebanon has integrated Hezbollah into its government and it is Hezbollah that initiated this act of war. I'd love to know which modern war had no civilians die.

Oh and the fact that the Lebanese attacked pretty far into Israel and targeted Haifa clearly indicates they wanted to escalate this.

-Rudey

Read the previous post. A side question, which Israeli stocks should I start buying up since the index is going down? Want to add some cheap stocks for my portfolio.

Lets see how Arab governments are blaming Hezbollah:

In a significant move, Saudi Arabia, the Arab world's political heavyweight and economic powerhouse, accused Hizbullah guerrillas - without naming them - of "uncalculated adventures" that could precipitate a new Middle East crisis.

A Saudi official quoted by the state Saudi Press Agency said the Lebanese Hizbullah's brazen capture of two Israeli soldiers was not legitimate.

The kingdom "clearly announces that there has to be a differentiation between legitimate resistance (to Israel) and uncalculated adventures."

The Saudi official said Hizbullah's actions could lead to "an extremely serious situation which could subject all Arab nations and its achievements to destruction."

"The kingdom sees that it is time for those elements to alone shoulder the full responsibility for this irresponsible behavior and that the burden of ending the crisis falls on them alone."

Saudi Arabia's comments on the crisis came after most moderate Arab governments reacted with relative restraint to Israel's offensive in Lebanon, condemning attacks on civilians and infrastructure but also implicitly criticizing Hizbullah.

-Rudey

I don't know how I feel about this, but I do know that Hezbollah is a really fun word to say.

according to cnn, 62 lebanese have been killed since wednesday. it doesnt' specify who they're with.

I absolutely abhor this train of thought - it's exactly this line of reasoning that has allowed for historical revision and the removal of personal responsibility on the part of the groups making the response, in my opinion.

At some point, we have to stop grasping for what I'd call "contextual apologist" behavior, and simply blame the parties for their actions. Saying they were 'provoked' into action is merely inches from calling their actions acceptable, justified or reasonable.

Please... I hope that at no point I somehow gave the impression that were even remotely acceptable - when I use the word "provoke" i'm using it in a strategic or tactical sense... so for example if Israel had done nothing, political or military, then I think they would have been provoking more attacks and kidnappings by emboldening the terrorists through a percieved weakness...

Rob, if America randomly decided to start massing our soldiers against your border (against the UN Security Council's binding resolution), moved 10,000 rockets to face you, then went in and killed 7 Canadians, then decided to kidnap two Canadians, and then decided to start firing rockets deep into the heart of Canada and hit Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver (I have no idea which is the heart), I would be very sympathetic to Canada I think. I think the world would really be sympathetic to Canada.

And the funny thing is a lot of Arab governments are sympathetic to Israel on this one since you never see the Saudis ever make an issuance like that.

-Rudey

First, I truly do value human life. However, I also realize that sometimes it takes a sacrifice of life to present a larger or more valuable loss. Unfortunately, our entire society has lost the stomach for war. The situation we're in is not appealing nor desired, but Europeans and Americans simply do not understand what war entails. There is almost an uprising over 62 people killed in Lebanon. While this is unfortunate, this is not a large amount in the course of a war. I imagine it will take much more death if Israel is truly to resolve this conflict, but I and others believe that the death is an unfortunate requirement for victory.

I don't think Isreal is being too out of line in their response at all. What's that one phrase I'm looking for.. "The straw that broke the camels back"

Isnt it once again a proven!

Dont Fuck with the Isrelis or they will kick some butt!

But, while they have world opinion on their side, it needs to be tempered a bit.

Lebanon is and will be a snake pit for some time because of their stratigic location.

Some of the Good Musilum Countrys have found that out in the past.:D

i hope israel wins. my cousin is jewish.