Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?
 

Do you feel as if your organization's leadership is genuinely concerned with stopping hazing? Or do you think that it's mostly for show for insurance companies, parents, and schools?

It seems to me that if our respective HQ's really wanted to stop hazing in its tracks, that they probably could succeed. However, in all likelihood, they would take a significant hit in terms of membership, and in terms of finances (at least short term).

How many of your national officers do you know who personally participated in hazing practices as undergrads?

(edited because I made no sense)

Re: Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?
 

Something tells me you won't get many answers to your questions...

If and When LXA finds out, they will counsel them and if not they will be suspended.

I might say rightly so!

Yes ktsnake, LXA does beleive in it and You are correct. I think more should dont You!

I definitely think that we want to make sure hazing isn't happening in Alpha Gamma Delta. A lot of time and effort is spent on educational programming and working with individual chapters to change their attitudes and/or practices if we see a red flag. We are very focused on looking for the little signs that things might nto be quite right and try to act on it very quickly, before it becomes out of control. In my experience, it starts out small, breaking the little rules and then gets worse and worse. We are constantly ("we" being the Volunteer Services Team.. the regional/national volunteers) discussing how to spot it early and get it corrected before something awful occurs.

Our current leadership, whether hazed or not, does not believe in hazing as a positive means to attaining sisterhood and feel very strongly that our goal with new members is to integrate them into our chapter as a whole, not separate them by treating them with less respect and humanity than we treat any other sister.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I was not hazed and actively prevented hazing from occurring within my chapter as a collegian. One of the main reasons that I selected Alpha Gamma Delta was because it was well known that the chapter didn't haze. I fought to keep it that way. I witnessed a lot of hazing in other GLOs during my time as a collegian and none of it looked fun or inspiring. We, as Alpha Gams, are charged to Inspire the Woman and thereby, Impact the World and hazing has no place in that mission.

At a Karnea (DTD International conference) a few years ago, there were banners from all of the chapters that had been active in the two years since the last conference.

At the opening session, the Fraternity president asked the members of the undergraduate council to remove the banners of the chapters that had lost their charters since the last meeting two years before.

Eleven banners were removed.

Do we catch everything. No. Do some of our chapters haze? I unfortunately have to assume so. Are circumstances sometimes taken into consideration. Yes. Do we have zero tolerance? Probably not, but pretty close.

I think we're serious about it.

They definatly look the other way if it's a big prominent chapter at a school with a great greek system such as Alabama, Ole Miss, Texas, etc. This has been proven time and time again. You think DKE will ever pull the Yale chapter for hazing? Don't hold your breath.

If you're some podunk chapter in NJ, they wont think twice of revoking you.

hate to say it, but he does have a point

Does He have a Point?

Maybe so, but Gamma Chapter our Second (Many Think First) is closed. ( Long Story).

If they screw up then they should be closed!

So You think that the big Chapters wont be closed, then think again!

If a Big Chapter is Closed for Violatins as they should be, if there is an explanation then Alums will go along with it.

If they act like punks, then treat them like punks.

They do Us no damn good or the Greek Society of that School!

Truth. It's very very difficult for an Ivy chapter to lose their charter. They have to do something terrible.

Re: Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?
 

Do you mean real, dangerous hazing (beating, forced drinking, physical overexertion, severe mental anguish) or "politically correct" hazing (interviews, signatures, silly stunts, wearing goofy things and having fun doing it)?

If it's the latter, I know for sure at least one of our past national presidents did as she wore her pledge beanie around at a past convention.

And as much as bows and toes can annoy me, he has a point. And if a big chapter like that DOES close, there's usually some major politics going on (i.e. a power struggle btwn that chapter and the HQ/council) that no one outside of those two parties has a clue about.

Does it really matter?

If it goes against what Your IHQ stands for, the best thing is do not do it!

Plain and simple!:)

The Insurance cost go up and up, so who does that affect. The Chapter.:rolleyes:

If it goes against what YOU believe in, its best not to do it.

I have witnessed this in another GLO. One of their biggest chapters gets away with murder. (Although I have never heard of any chapters of this particular GLO that have been closed for hazing, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened).

I think its rare for them to close a big chapter. Usually when that does happen to one, it is not only the national org, but also public relations pressure from the university. I think it also depends on the chapter's relationship to the national org. For example, my chapter and others at the big southern schools have always had the largest classes, most money, etc, but we had basically no correspondence with nationals beyond what was neccesary. However, the chapters the national organization love and constantly give awards to (the ones that devote themselves almost entirely to fundraising and the HQ concepts of brotherhood, antihazing), will be much more likely to experience nationals wrath. Those chapters, although superb in the national org's mind, would do little to fight punishment. They generally are not great socially or financially, and thus have little alumni or money with which to cause nationals to pause before stripping them of a charter. Meanwhile, the big southern chapters, at least in my fraternity, have several of the most powerful alumni and the loss of a couple of those chapter's money and influence would have impace on the national fraternity.

Hazing-Closing of Chapter Houses
 

shinerbock;
You may wish to call your National before talking on this matter.

Not rare to close a 'big' chapter at all. And a National would rather do before the school does.

While one is fully entitled to have their opinons or perception, without getting into details, your entire comment is just about dead wrong on facts.

bows&toes, you too.

A year or two ago a friend of mine told me how a sorority at his school got into a lot of trouble with the school for hazing and that there was a good chance that they were going to lose their charter. While I don't know the exact details of what happened, a friend of mine from a different chapter of the same sorority told me that nothing ended up happening because the national president was from that chapter and didn't want to see her own chapter close. This was something that had been going on for years at that school. Chances are, the president herself could have, at some point been involved in it. If she wasn't, she could've just refused to accept the fact that her chapter would start participating in it, and turned a blind eye to it.

Well it may be dead wrong for other fraternities, but I'm speaking from personal experience. Having been in office and dealing with nationals, there were several instances where we handled something poorly or the university spoke to our nationals, in which nationals looked the other way. Of course they wouldnt look the other way if it was a major issue that is impossible to ignore such as publicized hazing or some serious accident...but I've seen other chapters of my fraternity get in trouble from nationals for lesser things than what we've done. That may just be the poor handling of one national GLO, but thats my experience.

Risk Management-Hazing
 

KLPDaisy;
While I do believe what you wrote is the truth, if also strikes me as being very close to those fake chain letters, hoaxes and Urban Legends that we all get in our e-mails. Having followed risk management, I would find it very hard that a GLO President would allow that kind of Risk to continue. For that matter, any company President, which is what GLO Nations have just about become.

The reason why I have an interest is the my home chapter lost its way. After 20 some year, some went very wrong with the Brotherhood within the house. I know that when I was there, we had problems but we still kept the Brotherhood. Well after I graduated, the house went from a house of Brotherhood, a good Chapter to something beyond Animal House. Both National and the school stepped in and National did a full review and interviews with everyone and shut the house down until everyone involved was gone. And now,over 6 years later, rush numbers are not at the level to try to re-start my chapter and the Sigma Nu's are in my house ( sorry guys :) )

And I know that National has done it to other chapters, both large and small. I know because I stayed involve enough to have conversations with members of National.

Bottom lines: Just because you heard something or part of something, always wise to check it out. And National Risk Management is not going to go away. It will be getting harder and stronger.

Risk Management-Hazing
 

Shinerbock:We can agree on your last comment.

Well seeing as my chapter was far and away better run than our national organization, it didn't bother me. We needed them for a single thing...insurance.

Sometimes Companies just do not work well.
And sometimes they get overhauled and sometimes they do not.

My Chapter fell down and is now out because they failed. Companies fail for same reasons.

I am sorry to hear the your GLO 'Company' seems to be in the need for an overhaul. I know that mine went though one-and it seemed to have helped.

Well they need an overhaul in my opinion. I'm sure they serve other chapters well, but we were moving in seperate directions. We needed no financial or organizational help, nor did we appreciate the way they were PC'ing our fraternity educational material. Other chapter very well may have appreciated, it just didn't work for us.

Is over haul maybe to strong a usage?

Remember, The Members are the ones who can rule as The HQ members are there to support and admonish Chapters if there is problems.

Not knowing who Your GLO is, I can understand as We too had problems and have made changes.

hings are turning around on many fronts and hopefully for the better.

Each Chapter at a school refelcts on a whole GLO.

Most, if not all, GLO have conventions at which changes in officers, rules and policies are made. Ever go to one? Ever try to cause change?
And just what PC related changes are you upset with?
And as Tom Earp points out, without knowing your GLO, hard to be of any greater help with ideas or advise.

Not true. Let's not get on that tack because it's pointless.

Why would you ever want your fraternity to expand and be strong at other schools? Especially when the other chapters aren't like yours? Would you refer to a member of your organization from a different chapter as brother?

Or more specifically, how about a member from one of the newer chapters which fully utilizes the HQ's educational materials to the exclusion of more traditional induction/education practices?

You have listed several complaints about your (unknown) National Office but fail say just what they are.

You indicate that they are (now) too PC. What does that mean to you? To us?

You indicate that you (and/or your entire chapter) seems to feel and believe that you are better then your National ( and other chapters) in someways that you do not detail.

Again, without any details from you I can only offer advise on what I have seen and directly expienced.

Generally, houses that think they know it all, fall down on their face at some point.

The other option is to get out of you GLO and go local indi. Or find another GLO that you perfer-if that can even be done.

While I would need to dig through some records for details, I do know that SAE has put the hurt onto "big"/"prominent" chapters when they have crossed the line. I know MIT was shut down several year ago.

And it most likly happens every where, you and I just do not know about it.

A very down and dirty search found the history of GLO at San Diego State University:
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/cfsl/document...eekHistory.DOC

And another down and dirty search using Chapter hazing closing came up with a long list to review, including this one about a 91 year old Phi Delt chapter house:
http://www.dailyutahchronicle.com/me...hchronicle.com

Or a 107 year old Fiji chapter:
http://columbiamissourian.com/news/story.php?ID=19494

And to cover both sides, The University of Michigan chapter of the Alpha Epsilon Phi
http://www.bgnews.com/media/storage/...www.bgnews.com

Please feel free to do you own search , but please do it before you make a statement that closings do not ever happen to big, proud chapters...........

Harsh, but maybe very true.

Only The Members can change things and if they dont, then, whoses fault is that?

We all have General Assemblys that are attended by Members.

HQs set the tone, but if there are enough people who are not happy, it can be changed.

Dont just complain, do something about the problem.

Alright, sorry I haven't been keeping up, I'll try and respond but if I miss something remind me and i'll get to it. Regarding change, sure obviously the members have a certain amount of power, and I have been to both national conventions, as well as led focus groups at regional convention regarding recruitment practices and new member education. Maybe I mispoke regarding an overhaul, because I'm not sure that the national organization really could help us other than to have a sort of "hands off" policy, which they basically do. My chapter does well in recruitment, is good on campus, but I think the frustration that my brothers have involve the lack of emphasis nationals puts on realistic improvement. Having turned our chapter around about 15 years ago, I think the guys wish that our fraternity was better nationwide, instead of just in a handful of locations. However, like many national organizations, ours focuses mostly on more of what I would consider to be PC practices. They don't speak much about increasing your campus reputation or getting the best guys in rush, but rather about how to foster diversity and avoid what they consider hazing. I realize to many those things are important, but in our view, they don't really make a fraternity better. It often seems as if they care about numbers and diversity far more than they care about what the end result will be....moving on...In addition to the "PC" things I was talking about, one that really bothered people around my chapter was when nationals changed a part of our literature from "Christian" to "religious." The lines they changed were not just in membership literature, but in several statements which shape the entire foundation of our fraternity. Granted, we continue to use Christian, but the reason for the change indicated to us the direction nationals was moving towards. Regarding telling you my fraternity, I'd rather not, simply because of some of the things I've said that may have ruffled some feathers. I also don't really see that it is important. Also, somebody mentioned whether I would call somebody not from my chapter a brother...To be honest, I'm not sure. I really don't use the term that often to begin with, but I realize thats not really what you're asking. I imagine what you'd rather know is whether I consider myself and my chapter a part of a larger whole, or a seperate entity, and I think its probably some of both. Unfortunately we view the larger whole to be moving away from our ideals, so in that respect we might not wish to be associated. However, regarding the core ideals and the way we feel they are to be practiced, we proudly associate with those. I probably forgot somebody's comment, but i'll get back to it.

RM rules and Hazing
 

Nice posting but you either gloss over some issues of interested or missed them.

As this posting started on the topic of Risk Management and Hazing et al., you may wish to review the postings on that issue, the links which I provided are just the start.....but they do seem to show that several comments made here were inaccuate...

Your comments about your feelings ( and you seem to be also speaking for rest of your local chapter as well ) while well laid out seem to at times run against each other.

Long story short, drop your National indentification and go local. Your chapter seems to have major issues with you National which are not going to change.

This comment of yours alone:"Also, somebody mentioned whether I would call somebody not from my chapter a brother...To be honest, I'm not sure. I really don't use the term that often to begin with, but I realize thats not really what you're asking. I imagine what you'd rather know is whether I consider myself and my chapter a part of a larger whole, or a seperate entity, and I think its probably some of both. Unfortunately we view the larger whole to be moving away from our ideals, so in that respect we might not wish to be associated. However, regarding the core ideals and the way we feel they are to be practiced, we proudly associate with those." I find 'odd'.
Partly because of your prior postings, in several threads, on Hazing and Drugs, and partly because of what I experienced, learned and believe in the GLO system, and partly because some of your statements run up against each other.

Another thougth/question. You seem to be speaking for yourself and the rest of your 'friends' (as you do not seem able to use Brother). Are you also speaking for the younger members? Are you speaking for your Pledges who most likly do not know or understand what else is going on between you and your National? And if your Pledges ( and for that matter Rushees) are not aware of situation, how can they make any kind of imformed decision on weither or not to join your National Fraternity and chapter of it.

But this is a big world and we all, at least in this culture, have the right to our own experienes, beliefs, thoughts and actions ( as long as they to not cause any harm to others)

While sb can be a jag, I do understand what he's saying here.

He (and I guess his chapter) feels that while the fraternity was founded on things they do believe in, the current leadership of the fraternity isn't following those original ideals and that they've caved to outside pressures. I completely understand the "Christian" to "religious" thing and griping about that. They're not the same thing.

How many times do we hear people talk about corporations and say "what's happening is the opposite of what {insert founder here} would have wanted"? Most people just go on and don't think about it, or the most they'll do is dump their stock and wash their hands of the company. Very few stay around and try to get the company back to where it should be.

There is a difference between changing with the times and going against why you were founded just to placate universities or the press or whoever.

Well lets see. I'm not completely sure what I missed or what you you think runs together, but I'll try and respond. Regarding becoming a local fraternity, I don't think it is logistically feasible. Trust me, if we could do it and keep things the same, I think we would. I think I am different than many on this board because my greek affiliation is one that is more towards my local chapter, my school, and the entire southern greek system than anything else. I think most southern greeks would identify loyalty to their school, southern and Christian values, and loyalty to their friends and brothers as their ideals. Regarding speaking for my chapter, I'm sure there are some differences, but seeing as it is often discussed, I think I would be appropriately representative. I think when we take pride in our fraternity, we take pride in our philanthropic and social efforts, much moreso than those of the national organization. Likewise we also take pride in our southern and Christian heritage and beliefs, and the general way we carry ourselves. Obviously much of this isn't really part of our national HQ's identity. Regarding your comments about addressing each another as brother, I disagree on this point as well. For formal situations, sure I would, or I introduce often as "this is my fraternity brother..." but we don't generally take it farther than that. We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up. I realize this may offend some who subscribe to the fraternity manual idea that brotherhood trumps all and is the most important thing in life, but to each their own. Regarding why we couldnt go local, southern campuses arent overly fostering of local fraternities, and like I said, I'm not sure how the University would handle our land lease, insurance, etc...Please let me know what I missed, and I'll get back to it.

I will start my list with what I said up front: This thread started with or about RM/Hazing. Within this thread, and others, you have stated your perseptions/opinions without any backup or evidence. I provided some and you seemed to have missed it.

And even though I went to school in the NW, I have spent time with Southern Brothers. And I do not recall anything close to:"I think most southern greeks would identify loyalty to their school, southern and Christian values,....." And it it the first time I have ever seen it talked about on any kind of GLO board. Except when talking about Hazing and the Good Old Days.....Down South ( which is usually a code for other "non-PC correct" stuff and somthing I have not heard in the eary 2000's and if I did, it would really bother me....to the point of taking some form of reaction or action)
So perhaps the answer is: "I think I am different than many on this board because my greek affiliation is one that is more towards my local chapter,"
which again goes against everything I have ever experienced, been taught,observed et al....about my chapter house, my fraternity, and the general GLO.

And this comment:"Likewise we also take pride in our southern and Christian heritage and beliefs, and the general way we carry ourselves" is very interesting given some of your prior postings.

And you say this:"We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up. I realize this may offend some who subscribe to the fraternity manual idea that brotherhood trumps all and is the most important thing in life, but to each their own. Regarding why we couldnt go local, southern campuses arent overly fostering of local fraternities, and like I said, I'm not sure how the University would handle our land lease, insurance, etc"....but when I asked you about your rushees and pledges, you failed to answer that whole question.

You seem to want to pick from the University and National just what you want/need and ignore all else. You want a bed, a roof, a beer hall, and the insurance to cover RM but nothing else....? Again, do your rushees and pledges know this? Do they know that you seem to be turning into a near renegade group:"We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up." That sounds more like a Dinning Club to me.

Changes can be from "outside pressures" ie the Real World. Many things have changed since the 1800's. Not all changes are wall paper to make things just look better to press, just to placate universities or whoever and what ever. Groups are not isolated from society. Because they are groups, they attact attention from society and if running outside of it......All groups.

FWIW, there's an important sub-issue within the whole hazing thing. If the chapter has responsible (and I do mean R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-L-E) alumni support, there's not going to be any hazing. Period. If the alums are responsible, they won't allow for it.

Here's the Cliff Notes version of story that many of you can probably relate to. A few years ago I was working with a chapter that expressed an interest in having more alumni support.

They did a Homecoming mailing that brought out 20+ more alums than they'd had in previous years, so things seemed to be moving in the right direction. Upon further examination, however, the guys who were showing up weren't interested in doing the "heavy lifting", except the kind associated with hoisting beer cans to their lips.

The chapter was "challenging" (to put it lightly), and they tried the patience of the few alums that were interested in helping them out. Eventually the chapter was found guilty of a variety of risk management issues, including hazing and drug-related violations. The saddest aspects of this story are as follows:

*Because the chapter had infuriated the few alumni willing to help them (including their chapter advisor), no one was willing to stand up at a meeting with Greek Life & say, "I'll take them on my back and help them get back to normal".

*Not even having a well-known alum who had worked in the university's development office was enough to keep the chapter from a 5-year suspension.

In speaking with staffers from various GLOs, my impression is that they don't want hazing to be associated with their organizations in any form. I highly doubt that there's any benefit to having this stuff hidden.

Boz130;
Very good posting.
Have seen/heard both sides: alumni stopping stuff and unforunatly alumni coming in during pledging and preaching "the good old days".
And when that happens, more times than not, house gets itself into hot water sooner than later....

Well I'm not sure what you don't think I've backed up in regards to hazing. I'm having some trouble following both your posting style and your logic, so bear with me...If you'll tell me your contentions with my comments regarding hazing, I'll gladly respond, but at the moment I'm unsure as to what you are referring to. Regarding me ignoring your questions about our pledges and rushees, once again I'm not sure what you are questioning. I feel confident that our rushees are rushing our chapter much more than they are the national organization, as shown by their distaste regarding the operations of some of the other chapters they visit. I get the feeling that you're accusing us of doing some sort of disservice to them, which I don't understand. Also, I question the amount of time you've spent with "southern brothers." Now, your comments may be realistic if those schools were smaller, but at large southern universities the greek systems tend to share similar interests and ideals. I also have to take issue with your comments regarding southern and Christian heritage. That is something the large majority of fraternities on campuses in the south take pride in. You are right, much of it is "non-PC." For instance, using the term "Christian ideals" isn't PC, as everyone isn't a Christian. However, "religious ideals" means little to us. I don't value all religions the same, so it makes little sense for us to accept them all as valid. If this is too 1800's for you, I'm sorry, but our ideals and beliefs don't change with society. To me, right and wrong are generally the same today as they were 100 years ago. Thus, I think our fraternity's foundation should remain intact, regardless of who decides they are offended by what we believe in. Of course groups are not isolated from society, but the purpose of a private isn't to simply replicate society. We are different, and we are often seperate in our actions and our beliefs...Now, in regards to us picking and choosing from the school and nationals, I don't see this to be the case. We use nationals for insurance, and that is it. My comment regarding our land lease was that I don't know how the university would treat a lease to a non national fraternity (there are none on my campus). Nationals does not benefit us financially other than providing insurance, if anything we benefit them. We constantly raise more money than the large majority of chapters for our philanthropy, and sessions at the conventions we pay for are often taught by our officers. To be clear, our chapter is not like what you believe a fraternity is. We are loyal to one another and our alma mater, but we also value some things more than the fraternity. If there is a seperation between us and HQ, it is them leaving the core values of our fraternity, not us leaving them. As always, please note your questions and I will respond.

What "Southern brothers" have you been around that feel the way you claim you do. I don't have a single friend at any of the major greek schools in the South that truly differ in the opinions expressed by Shinerbock. Most powerful Southern chapters most definitely take loyalty to their university and their own chapter over nationals. Keeping our Southern values and Christian based beliefs is also very important. It seems as if you think it is wrong of him to say that he doesn't use the term "brother" except in formal settings or using it to introduce, as in "this is my fraternity brother..." Why do you feel that is so incredibly important. I have extreme loyalty to all the guys in my fraternity and know that they feel the same. Using a word all of the time isn't going to strengthen or loosen our bonds either way. I think that those who preach about that kind of thing are also the ones that sit and read their manuals and rituals every night and can probobly recite it all by memory.......basically, the types that have their heads up nationals ass all of the time. I just don't see the point. We keep our relationship with nationals at a bare minimum and we do extremely well.

While Boz130 is a LXA, He ahs been working with GLOs for years and has a working knowledge.

He has a program that He presents to Us as Greeks and is useful if anyone will listen.:)

But in reading this thread, I cannot understand how a Chapter can feel that they are more important than the whole=National Organization.

Each Chapter is a peg in the overall Spectrum of what it means to expand and be a functioning Organization. Grow or die.

Maybe I am The Lucky One being a LXA!:)